tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4515513418663210312024-03-14T17:38:37.288+09:00plucking creationism's low-hanging fruitSurprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.comBlogger91125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-5155505991055274852021-12-08T11:53:00.000+09:002021-12-08T11:53:19.749+09:00Creationists will work so hard to avoid the truth<p><a href="http://meditationsofsanfordstaab.weebly.com/my-blog/the-continuous-weight-of-sin"> Stanford Staab has a blog and a post that became a newspaper editorial</a>.</p><p>It is stupid from start to finish but I restrained myself and looked at one specific claim he made:</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><strong style="background-color: white; color: #666666; font-family: "Proxima Nova", "Myriad Pro", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; text-align: justify;">But when you get down to it, the evolutionists have to admit that the only real reason why they must support the idea is because the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable.</strong></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><strong style="background-color: white; color: #666666; font-family: "Proxima Nova", "Myriad Pro", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; text-align: justify;">Why is this unacceptable? I would have to say it is due to the fear of guilt one would face if one were to admit to a creator and a moral authority.</strong></p></blockquote><p>I comment on his blog post, noting that more than <a href="https://www.theclergyletterproject.org/">15,000 American Christian clergy disagree with him</a>. If nothing else, for them "the thought of an intelligent creator is simply" not "unacceptable".</p><p><br /></p><p>The comment thread:</p><table class="wsite-not-footer" id="blogTable" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #666666; font-family: "Proxima Nova", "Myriad Pro", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; table-layout: fixed; width: 960px;"><tbody><tr><td valign="top"><div class="blog-body" id="148701192898099364-blog" style="float: left; width: 736.2px;"><div id="wsite-content"><div id="commentArea"><div class="blog-comment-area"><div id="726293066841847529"><div class="blogCommentWrap odd blogCommentLevel0
" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 100% -96px no-repeat; margin: 0px 0px 22px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 6px 0px 0px;"><div class="blogCommentHeading" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px -48px no-repeat; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Arial, Helvetica; margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 6px;"><div class="blogCommentHeadingInner" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px 0px repeat-x; height: 48px;"><div class="blogCommentAuthor" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-pointer.png") 20px 0px no-repeat; color: #333333; float: left; font-weight: bold; height: 48px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 11px;"><a class="name" href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blgospot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51) !important; float: left; height: 38px; line-height: 36px; margin: 0px 3px 0px 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">surprises aplenty</a><a class="link" href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blgospot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-link.png") 0px 0px no-repeat; color: #0066cc; cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 16px; margin: 11px 3px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; text-decoration-line: none; text-indent: -1000px; width: 16px;">link</a></div><div class="blogCommentDate" style="color: #333333; float: right; font-size: 12px; height: 48px; line-height: 38px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 9px 0px 0px; text-align: right; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">12/1/2021 06:24:58 pm</div><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div><div class="blogCommentText" style="padding: 0px 16px;"><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">" But when you get down to it, the evolutionists have to admit that the only real reason why they must support the idea is because the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable.<br />Why is this unacceptable? "<br /><br />Your lie here is quite unacceptable. Turns out that more theists than atheists in the US are evolution proponents. That's right; although virtually all atheists are evolution proponents, there are so many Christians that the evolution-accepting percentage is greater than the number of atheists.<br /><br />So now it is clear that "the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable." is a lie. It is a shame that you hate evolution so much without knowing much about it. I pity you for your poor education.</p></div><div class="blogCommentOptions" style="overflow: hidden; width: 730.2px;"><span class="blog-button reply-comment" href="#" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-button.png") 0px -23px no-repeat; color: #333333; cursor: pointer; float: right; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 11px; font-weight: bold; height: 23px; line-height: 23px; margin: 10px 0px 0px 6px;" title="Reply to this comment"><span style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-button.png") 100% 0px no-repeat; float: left; height: 23px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 7px; padding: 0px 15px 0px 8px;">Reply</span></span><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div></div><div id="116806462462238378"><div class="blogCommentWrap even blogCommentLevel1
blogCommentOwner" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header-author.png") 100% -96px no-repeat; margin: 0px 0px 22px 50px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 6px 0px 0px;"><div class="blogCommentHeading" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header-author.png") 0px -48px no-repeat; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Arial, Helvetica; margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 6px;"><div class="blogCommentHeadingInner" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header-author.png") 0px 0px repeat-x; height: 48px;"><div class="blogCommentAuthor" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-pointer-author.png") 20px 0px no-repeat; color: #333333; float: left; font-weight: bold; height: 48px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 11px;"><a class="name" href="http://meditationsofsanfordstaab.weebly.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51) !important; float: left; height: 38px; line-height: 36px; margin: 0px 3px 0px 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">Sanford A Staab</a><a class="link" href="http://meditationsofsanfordstaab.weebly.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-link.png") 0px 0px no-repeat; color: #0066cc; cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 16px; margin: 11px 3px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; text-decoration-line: none; text-indent: -1000px; width: 16px;">link</a></div><div class="blogCommentDate" style="color: #333333; float: right; font-size: 12px; height: 48px; line-height: 38px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 9px 0px 0px; text-align: right; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">12/2/2021 11:11:04 am</div><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div><div class="blogCommentText" style="padding: 0px 16px;"><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">There are many textbooks on evolution that open admit this clear fear. I have heard of museaums that have been challenged with showing exhibits of long-ago proven false hypothesis only to come and say "if we removed that we wouldn't have anything to show to support evolution". If you contest this assertion see Kent Hovind's free creation/evolution seminar tapes available at drdino.com.<br />I can see that this post may rapidly turn into an athiest v creationist bashing contest. If that happens I will simply not accept comments as this was not my purpose. Athiests don't believe in God - so why should they fight those that do? They have no basis for moral authority so how can they impose one on others?<br />BTW - the number of people that believe something doesn't make it true. I know this goes both ways but I am not arguing on the basis of popularity, I am arguing on the basis of logic as I see it.</p></div><div class="blogCommentOptions" style="overflow: hidden; width: 680.2px;"><span class="blog-button reply-comment" href="#" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-button.png") 0px -23px no-repeat; color: #333333; cursor: pointer; float: right; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 11px; font-weight: bold; height: 23px; line-height: 23px; margin: 10px 0px 0px 6px;" title="Reply to this comment"><span style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-button.png") 100% 0px no-repeat; float: left; height: 23px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 7px; padding: 0px 15px 0px 8px;">Reply</span></span><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div></div><div id="792341067924831453"><div class="blogCommentWrap odd blogCommentLevel2
" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 100% -96px no-repeat; margin: 0px 0px 22px 100px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 6px 0px 0px;"><div class="blogCommentHeading" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px -48px no-repeat; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Arial, Helvetica; margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 6px;"><div class="blogCommentHeadingInner" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px 0px repeat-x; height: 48px;"><div class="blogCommentAuthor" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-pointer.png") 20px 0px no-repeat; color: #333333; float: left; font-weight: bold; height: 48px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 11px;"><a class="name" href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blgospot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51) !important; float: left; height: 38px; line-height: 36px; margin: 0px 3px 0px 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">surprises aplenty</a><a class="link" href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blgospot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-link.png") 0px 0px no-repeat; color: #0066cc; cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 16px; margin: 11px 3px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; text-decoration-line: none; text-indent: -1000px; width: 16px;">link</a></div><div class="blogCommentDate" style="color: #333333; float: right; font-size: 12px; height: 48px; line-height: 38px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 9px 0px 0px; text-align: right; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">12/2/2021 06:50:34 pm</div><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div><div class="blogCommentText" style="padding: 0px 16px;"><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">"There are many textbooks on evolution that open admit this clear fear"<br />I didn't mention any fear. So there is no clear fear here.<br /><br />I did mention that the following is wrong:<br /><i>"the only real reason why they must support the idea is because the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable."</i><br />And that is not true. It is a lie. It is a dishonest thing to say.<br /><br />You wrote<br />" the number of people that believe something doesn't make it true. "<br />And that is true and fair but irrelevant. The fact that more theists than atheists accept evolution means your claim that "thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable." is a lie. Here is a group of American Christian clergy who are fine with evolution. There are a lot of them but that doesn't make their claim true. It does mean that your claim - that " the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable." is false<br />https://www.theclergyletterproject.org/<br /><br />You wrote:<br />"athiest v creationist bashing contest."<br />No, this is an evolution proponent calling you on your lie. Again, many theists are fine with evolution. So many theists are fine with evolution that claiming "the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable" is wrong.<br /><br />If you care about honesty, you will admit your error.<br /></p></div><div class="blogCommentOptions" style="overflow: hidden; width: 630.2px;"><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div></div><div id="917513751175963524"><div class="blogCommentWrap even blogCommentLevel0
blogCommentOwner" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header-author.png") 100% -96px no-repeat; margin: 0px 0px 22px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 6px 0px 0px;"><div class="blogCommentHeading" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header-author.png") 0px -48px no-repeat; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Arial, Helvetica; margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 6px;"><div class="blogCommentHeadingInner" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header-author.png") 0px 0px repeat-x; height: 48px;"><div class="blogCommentAuthor" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-pointer-author.png") 20px 0px no-repeat; color: #333333; float: left; font-weight: bold; height: 48px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 11px;"><a class="name" href="http://meditationsofsanfordstaab.weebly.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51) !important; float: left; height: 38px; line-height: 36px; margin: 0px 3px 0px 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">Sanford A Staab</a><a class="link" href="http://meditationsofsanfordstaab.weebly.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-link.png") 0px 0px no-repeat; color: #0066cc; cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 16px; margin: 11px 3px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; text-decoration-line: none; text-indent: -1000px; width: 16px;">link</a></div><div class="blogCommentDate" style="color: #333333; float: right; font-size: 12px; height: 48px; line-height: 38px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 9px 0px 0px; text-align: right; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">12/2/2021 08:55:16 pm</div><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div><div class="blogCommentText" style="padding: 0px 16px;"><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">You are calling me a liar - that is bashing.<br />Of course I am calling you in-sane because so far I have seen no logical or empirical arguments to support your position.<br />To atheists, all my comments are irellevent - why does this bother you?<br />As to FEAR I don't mean spooky creepy scared, I mean ashamed to be shown to have no real evidence to suport evolution.<br />As I said, see the Hovind Creation/Evolution video or this really good one I watched last night for details. (https://youtu.be/CFYswvGoaPU?t=724) Even Richard Dawkins can't come up with a decent and logical explination for evolution. You guys are bankrupt in your delusion of accidental creation. And THAT is my opinion which cannot be a lie.</p></div><div class="blogCommentOptions" style="overflow: hidden; width: 730.2px;"><span class="blog-button reply-comment" href="#" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-button.png") 0px -23px no-repeat; color: #333333; cursor: pointer; float: right; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 11px; font-weight: bold; height: 23px; line-height: 23px; margin: 10px 0px 0px 6px;" title="Reply to this comment"><span style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-button.png") 100% 0px no-repeat; float: left; height: 23px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 7px; padding: 0px 15px 0px 8px;">Reply</span></span><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div></div><div id="538274137546891193"><div class="blogCommentWrap odd blogCommentLevel1
" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 100% -96px no-repeat; margin: 0px 0px 22px 50px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 6px 0px 0px;"><div class="blogCommentHeading" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px -48px no-repeat; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Arial, Helvetica; margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 6px;"><div class="blogCommentHeadingInner" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px 0px repeat-x; height: 48px;"><div class="blogCommentAuthor" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-pointer.png") 20px 0px no-repeat; color: #333333; float: left; font-weight: bold; height: 48px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 11px;"><a class="name" href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blgospot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51) !important; float: left; height: 38px; line-height: 36px; margin: 0px 3px 0px 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">surprises aplenty</a><a class="link" href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blgospot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-link.png") 0px 0px no-repeat; color: #0066cc; cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 16px; margin: 11px 3px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; text-decoration-line: none; text-indent: -1000px; width: 16px;">link</a></div><div class="blogCommentDate" style="color: #333333; float: right; font-size: 12px; height: 48px; line-height: 38px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 9px 0px 0px; text-align: right; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">12/3/2021 12:42:51 pm</div><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div><div class="blogCommentText" style="padding: 0px 16px;"><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">"Of course I am calling you in-sane because so far I have seen no logical or empirical arguments to support your position."<br /><br />Then that reflects on you. My position is that many theists are fine with and to claim<br /><br />""the only real reason why they must support the idea is because the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable."<br /><br />, is to lie.<br /><br />Why is it a lie? Pay attention because this is the part where I (again) support my position:<br /><br />https://www.theclergyletterproject.org/<br />More than 15,000 American Christian Clergy who are Christians and accept evolution. They are Christian so to say "the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable." is to lie.<br /><br />You see how I did that? I noted a claim you made that was not true.<br /><br />I explained why it was not true.<br /><br />I gave actual evidence that it was not true.<br /><br />You lied and you refuse to admit it or change your statement. Previously you had been a person who lied once. But in not admitting it you are becoming a person best described as a liar. Not bashing but stating a fact.<br /><br />why you claim "thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable."" you are lying. It is that simple. And it colours everything else you write. I see that you make a false claim and immediately feel that nothing else you write can be trusted either. The way you run from this topic and try to change the topic strengthens my poor opinion of you. But it is the kind of thing that Hovind would do so you are indeed like your mentor.<br /></p></div><div class="blogCommentOptions" style="overflow: hidden; width: 680.2px;"><span class="blog-button reply-comment" href="#" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-button.png") 0px -23px no-repeat; color: #333333; cursor: pointer; float: right; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 11px; font-weight: bold; height: 23px; line-height: 23px; margin: 10px 0px 0px 6px;" title="Reply to this comment"><span style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-button.png") 100% 0px no-repeat; float: left; height: 23px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 7px; padding: 0px 15px 0px 8px;">Reply</span></span><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div></div><div id="859815348104437378"><div class="blogCommentWrap even blogCommentLevel2
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There is this group that call themselves "Christian" that happen to also believe in "evolutionary theory". Never mind that a mirage of crap has been shoved down all our throats since we were 5 years old in public school. Never mind that they have probably never taken a second thought that all that repetition of unverified or lying crap might not be true. So now we have this "opinion" that somehow becomes legitimate ammo and gets labeled as "evidence for evolution". As I have said and you have agreed, "opinion" is not "scientific evidence" no matter how many or what groups have that opinion.<br />Scientific / Emperical evidence means repeatable/testable/demonstratable kinds of evidence.<br />If you can show me one legit example of say:<br />* Non-life turning into a self repairing, self replicating life form<br />* The progression of one kind of life into another or even a clearly intermediate form between two types<br />* Show how a star or solar system is actually born with observable evidence.<br />* Demonstrate any chemical process that would create DNA and new information to create a life-form.<br />* Prove the age of fossils or rocks using techniques that don't require massive assumptions.<br />* Show how a river anywhere cuts deep canions over time and how this can happen on groud that is rising. (Grand Canyon)<br /><br />How many of whoever has an opinion is not evidence.<br /><br />My stating that the only reason evolutionists believe in the theory is because they are afraid to even think of a creator with true moral authority is simply stating what has been admitted publically many times. I should give you a precise example but I know there is a good one or two in Kent Hovind's creation/evolution seminar tapes.<br /><br />You are saying that this claim is false but if you listened to the material I mentioned you would see the specific examples that show this is not a lie.<br />It might seem to you to be an unreasonable assumption but to me it is very reasonable because there simply is no evidence or logical story that can back up any part of evolutionary theory and this then requires blind faith by any follower of evolution that we spontaneously came into all our glory by accident.<br /><br />I have used the analogy of a ball-point pen stood up on its nose with the ball retracted. Most pens can be made to stand this way on a still level table. Now explain how that got that way without purposeful intelligent intervention. There is no other explanation that holds water. If that pen falls it will NEVER get back up to its original position with out intelligent help either directly by a human or indirectly via some device invented by a human.<br /><br />Write your own blog and sell your own ideas and stop bashing mine. (Unless you can actually come of with acceptable scientific, repeatable, observable evidence to prove me wrong.)</p></div><div class="blogCommentOptions" style="overflow: hidden; width: 630.2px;"><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div></div><div id="861050954121286589"><div class="blogCommentWrap odd blogCommentLevel0
" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 100% -96px no-repeat; margin: 0px 0px 22px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 6px 0px 0px;"><div class="blogCommentHeading" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px -48px no-repeat; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Arial, Helvetica; margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 6px;"><div class="blogCommentHeadingInner" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px 0px repeat-x; height: 48px;"><div class="blogCommentAuthor" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-pointer.png") 20px 0px no-repeat; color: #333333; float: left; font-weight: bold; height: 48px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 11px;"><a class="name" href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blgospot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51) !important; float: left; height: 38px; line-height: 36px; margin: 0px 3px 0px 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">surprises aplenty</a><a class="link" href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blgospot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-link.png") 0px 0px no-repeat; color: #0066cc; cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 16px; margin: 11px 3px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; text-decoration-line: none; text-indent: -1000px; width: 16px;">link</a></div><div class="blogCommentDate" style="color: #333333; float: right; font-size: 12px; height: 48px; line-height: 38px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 9px 0px 0px; text-align: right; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">12/7/2021 04:00:11 pm</div><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div><div class="blogCommentText" style="padding: 0px 16px;"><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">." There is this group that call themselves "Christian" that happen to also believe in "evolutionary theory"."<br /><br />Keep in mind 'this group' is the majority. That does not make it right, but it does make it more than 'this group'. Young Earth Creationists are a minority. That doesn't make them wrong but it means they should know about their own religion.<br /><br />"Never mind that a mirage of crap has been shoved down all our throats since we were 5 years old in public school. Never mind that they have probably never taken a second thought that all that repetition of unverified or lying crap might not be true."<br />You are describing religion here, not science. Yes, this is a problem for you creationists.<br /><br />". So now we have this "opinion" that somehow becomes legitimate ammo and gets labeled as "evidence for evolution"."<br />No, it is however evidence that this claim of yours is wrong. Not my opinion but you are factually wrong when you say:<br />"the evolutionists have to admit that the only real reason why they must support the idea is because the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable."<br />When you say that. you are lying.<br /><br />And I feel strongly that lies are bad. You appear not to mind so much.<br /><br />"My stating that the only reason evolutionists believe in the theory is because they are afraid to even think of a creator with true moral authority is simply stating what has been admitted publically many times."<br /><br />Some people may say that. But here are 15,000 American Christian Clergy who say otherwise: https://www.theclergyletterproject.org/<br />Still, humour me. Quote three such claims. They need to say they are afraid of there being a creator. They need to say this is why they are evolution proponents.<br /><br />Just three. Or, you are lying again.<br /><br />"You are saying that this claim is false but if you listened to the material I mentioned you would see the specific examples that show this is not a lie"<br />You claim that<br />" the evolutionists have to admit that the only real reason why they must support the idea is because the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable."<br />remains a lie. I have read your post and I find all of it foolish but this seemed an easy point to argue. I mean, there are more theists than atheists in the US that accept evolution so what you claimed was not true. This is easy, this is verifiable and it is true. You made a statement that was not true.<br /><br />Being honest seems to concern me more than it does you. Your dishonesty is not atypical in creationists and is a reason I find all theists suspect. I need greater honesty than you display.<br /><br />"(Unless you can actually come of with acceptable scientific, repeatable, observable evidence to prove me wrong.)"<br /><br />Let's do this:<br />I say this claim is wrong:<br />"the evolutionists have to admit that the only real reason why they must support the idea is because the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable."<br />My evidence?<br />15,000+ American Clergy who clearly accept God and also accept evolution. https://www.theclergyletterproject.org/<br /><br />Done. I await your apology. An honest person would have admitted their error long ago. I still hold hope that you have some vestige of integrity in you.<br /><br />" they are afraid to even think of a creator with true moral authority is simply stating what has been admitted publically many times. I should give you a precise example..."<br />Yes, you should but you cannot. Go ahead; name three: They need to say they are afraid of there being a creator. They need to say this is why they are evolution proponents.<br /><br /></p></div><div class="blogCommentOptions" style="overflow: hidden; width: 730.2px;"><span class="blog-button reply-comment" href="#" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-button.png") 0px -23px no-repeat; color: #333333; cursor: pointer; float: right; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 11px; font-weight: bold; height: 23px; line-height: 23px; margin: 10px 0px 0px 6px;" title="Reply to this comment"><span style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-button.png") 100% 0px no-repeat; float: left; height: 23px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 7px; padding: 0px 15px 0px 8px;">Reply</span></span><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div></div><div id="288344639126703140"><div class="blogCommentWrap even blogCommentLevel0
" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 100% -96px no-repeat; margin: 0px 0px 22px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 6px 0px 0px;"><div class="blogCommentHeading" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px -48px no-repeat; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Arial, Helvetica; margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 6px;"><div class="blogCommentHeadingInner" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px 0px repeat-x; height: 48px;"><div class="blogCommentAuthor" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-pointer.png") 20px 0px no-repeat; color: #333333; float: left; font-weight: bold; height: 48px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 11px;"><a class="name" href="http://meditationsofsanfordstaab.weebly.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51) !important; float: left; height: 38px; line-height: 36px; margin: 0px 3px 0px 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">Sanford A Staab</a><a class="link" href="http://meditationsofsanfordstaab.weebly.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-link.png") 0px 0px no-repeat; color: #0066cc; cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 16px; margin: 11px 3px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; text-decoration-line: none; text-indent: -1000px; width: 16px;">link</a></div><div class="blogCommentDate" style="color: #333333; float: right; font-size: 12px; height: 48px; line-height: 38px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 9px 0px 0px; text-align: right; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">12/7/2021 04:35:57 pm</div><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div><div class="blogCommentText" style="padding: 0px 16px;"><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">First give me an example of REAL scientific (repeatable, observable, testable) evidence to support the theory.<br />I will admit that I don't know that ALL atheists are afraid of the idea of a God might be true. Evolutionists generally discount the idea of creation a-priori because it is against their "religion".<br />I am saying that the only logical reason for this kind of blind anti-faith is a deep down fear of guilt and accountability because blind anti-faith is not rational or scientific – which is what atheists generally claim to be.<br />This is an opinion, and not a statement of fact. It cannot be a lie because of that.<br />As for the majority of ‘Christians’ believing in evolution, I still can’t see how that (granted for arguments sake) “fact” changes my assertion about atheists. It is an obtuse point that does not address the original assertion.</p><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><br /></p><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><br /></p><div class="blogCommentHeading" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png"); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0px -48px; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: initial; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Arial, Helvetica; margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 6px;"><div class="blogCommentHeadingInner" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-header.png") 0px 0px repeat-x; height: 48px;"><div class="blogCommentAuthor" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-pointer.png") 20px 0px no-repeat; color: #333333; float: left; font-weight: bold; height: 48px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 11px;"><a class="name" href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blgospot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51) !important; float: left; height: 38px; line-height: 36px; margin: 0px 3px 0px 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">surprises aplenty</a><a class="link" href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blgospot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="background: url("/images/common/blog/blog-comment-link.png") 0px 0px no-repeat; color: #0066cc; cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 16px; margin: 11px 3px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; text-decoration-line: none; text-indent: -1000px; width: 16px;">link</a></div><div class="blogCommentDate" style="color: #333333; float: right; font-size: 12px; height: 48px; line-height: 38px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 9px 0px 0px; text-align: right; text-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 1px 1px 0px;">12/7/2021 06:46:19 pm</div><div class="clear" style="clear: both;"></div></div></div><div class="blogCommentText" style="padding: 0px 16px;"><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Let me state my original point here at the beginning: The majority of evolution proponents in the USA are Christian. This means your claim that " the only real reason why they must support the idea is because the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable." is wrong. It is a lie.<br /><br />Here is another point. Not really a new one:<br /><br />Evolution proponent does not mean atheist. Again, more Christians than atheists in the US are evolution proponents. Any time you claim that "the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable" is simply not true.<br /><br /><br />"First give me an example of REAL scientific (repeatable, observable, testable) evidence to support the theory."<br /><br />You would not listen or read it if I did. And besides, I have brought up only one concern here. One you seem terrified to admit and accept.<br /><br />"I will admit that I don't know that ALL atheists are afraid of the idea of a God might be true""<br />Who cares? I haven't ever been talking about atheists. I have only been talking about this lie you stated:<br />"the evolutionists have to admit that the only real reason why they must support the idea is because the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable."<br />You wrote "evolutionist" which is a silly word but again, it is not the same as 'atheist'. In mentioning 'atheists' at all is to deceive here.<br /><br />And again this lie:<br />" they are afraid to even think of a creator with true moral authority is simply stating what has been admitted publically many times. I should give you a precise example..."<br />Evolutionists generally discount the idea of creation a-priori because it is against their "religion".<br /><br />No. Once again, the religion of the majority of evolution proponents in the USA is Christianity. Is it so hard for you to speak the truth? Are you so afraid of the truth? Evolutionist could mean many things but it does not mean atheist. To claim it does is to lie.<br /><br />"which is what atheists generally claim to be."<br />We are talking about evolution not atheism. The two are not the same as I have stated and actually, given evidence.<br /><br /><br />You did notice that I did give evidence that many Christians are fine with evolution, correct? You saw that? So the clear problem is, you asked me for "(Unless you can actually come of with acceptable scientific, repeatable, observable evidence to prove me wrong" and I gave it. And you still cannot accept it or admit it. If I were to show actual evidence for evolution, it would not matter. I gave actual evidence for my simpler, more obvious claim and you still cannot bring yourself to face it.<br /><br /><br />"As for the majority of ‘Christians’ believing in evolution, I still can’t see how that (granted for arguments sake) “fact” changes my assertion about atheists. It is an obtuse point that does not address the original assertion."<br /><br />Your assertion about atheists is irrelevant. We are talking about evolution proponents and that is not the same as atheists.<br />I guess it is because you are lying to yourself. Let's go back to my original assertion. Here is what the first thing I wrote:<br /><br />"" But when you get down to it, the evolutionists have to admit that the only real reason why they must support the idea is because the thought of an intelligent creator is simply unacceptable.<br />Why is this unacceptable? "<br /><br />Your lie here is quite unacceptable. Turns out that more theists than atheists in the US are evolution proponents. That's right; although virtually all atheists are evolution proponents, there are so many Christians that the evolution-accepting percentage is greater than the number of atheists."<br /><br />I am far to honest to be a creationist like you. Note that this says nothing about my religious beliefs; I can say that and be Christian, Jewish, atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or other. If ever you wonder why non-creationists do not take you seriously and don't believe your claims, note how you have lied and lied again in this post and comment thread. You do your own personal credibility no favours here.<br /></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table>Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-18895639482304632242018-04-15T07:11:00.001+09:002018-04-15T07:11:33.022+09:00"Only a theory" ongoing roundupThis is a developing post I intend to keep adding examples to.<br />
The first come from <a href="http://murrayledger.com/church_page/is-organic-evolution-a-fact/article_22358fb8-3f64-11e8-a692-1ffdff646fdb.html?mode=story">Jonnie Hutchison, Green Plain church of Christ in the Murray Ledger</a>. He writes:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
The very definition of a theory suggests that which is speculative and conjectural. If there is sufficient evidence to prove a theory, then it ceases to be a theory. Some have theorized that earth is being visited by aliens from another planet. Yet, merely advancing such a theory does not make it a fact no matter how many people may believe it. Such is the case with the theory of organic evolution. Where is the evidence that takes it from the realm of theory to fact?</blockquote>
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Again, I will be adding more examples of people using, "Only a theory" as an attack on evolution. Here is the rebuttal.<br />
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory">From Wikipedia</a>:<br />
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A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproducibility">repeatedly tested</a>, in accordance with the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method">scientific method</a>, using a predefined <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_(science)">protocol</a> of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observation">observation</a> and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiment">experiment</a>.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#cite_note-1">[1]</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#cite_note-The_Structure_of_Scientific_Theories_in_" the_stanford_encyclopedia_of_philosophy="">[2]</a> Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge">knowledge</a>.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#cite_note-Schafersman-3">[3]</a><br />The definition of a scientific theory (often contracted to "theory" for the sake of brevity) as used in the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branches_of_science">disciplines of science</a> is significantly different from the common <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernacular">vernacular</a> usage of the word "theory".<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#cite_note-NAS2008-4">[4]</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#cite_note-5">[Note 1]</a> In everyday speech, "theory" can imply that something is an unsubstantiated and speculative <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjecture">guess</a>,<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#cite_note-NAS2008-4">[4]</a> the opposite of its meaning in science. These different usages are comparable to the opposing usages of "<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction#Prediction_in_science">prediction</a>" in science versus everyday speech, where it denotes a mere hope.</blockquote>
<a href="https://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-the-scientific-theory-definition-characteristics-example.html">Study dot com</a>:<br />
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Outside of science, the definition of a theory is a thought that may or may not be true. In the science community, a scientific theory is defined as a hypothesis or a group of hypotheses about some phenomena that have been supported through research using the scientific method.</blockquote>
<a href="https://www.livescience.com/21457-what-is-a-law-in-science-definition-of-scientific-law.html">From Live Science</a>:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
"<a href="https://www.livescience.com/21490-what-is-a-scientific-hypothesis-definition-of-hypothesis.html">Hypotheses</a>, theories and laws are rather like apples, oranges and kumquats: one cannot grow into another, no matter how much fertilizer and water are offered," according to the <a href="http://undsci.berkeley.edu/teaching/misconceptions.php#b12">University of California</a>. A hypothesis is a limited explanation of a phenomenon; a <a href="https://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html">scientific theory</a> is an in-depth explanation of the observed phenomenon. A law is a statement about an observed phenomenon or a unifying concept, according to <a href="http://science.kennesaw.edu/~rmatson/3380theory.html">Kennesaw State University</a>.</blockquote>
<br />
So a theory is a hypothesis or even simple idea that has survived repeated testing. Further, it is an explanation for events, not the event itself. There are a group of theories for evolution including <b>natural selection, sexual selection, founder effect</b> and more. These are explanations for the factual events and things we see. In contrast, there are laws regarding gravity and we all see the fact of it, but there is no well-accepted theory. So the phenomenon is seen and known, but the mechanisms are not understood.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh84KvWyQIgBYIe5sfP7Oeq4BMmgAyq5molAvM7IHTvcYQmVaaL1zB_VAWyrOo4AEZc31uV19A6jhaw4mrRT2zOAdFb2i0fPk6ELB4SlmgsUEtc-0Uo5mZq4xCmqeii0zqBMPqI17XNoQ/s1600/theory+law+graphic+a.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="325" data-original-width="646" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh84KvWyQIgBYIe5sfP7Oeq4BMmgAyq5molAvM7IHTvcYQmVaaL1zB_VAWyrOo4AEZc31uV19A6jhaw4mrRT2zOAdFb2i0fPk6ELB4SlmgsUEtc-0Uo5mZq4xCmqeii0zqBMPqI17XNoQ/s320/theory+law+graphic+a.jpg" width="320" /></a></div>
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More examples of Creationists using, "Only a theory" as an attack on evolution.</div>
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<a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=evolution%20%22Only%20a%20theory%22&src=typd">A twitter search for "Only a theory"</a>. Some tweets use it sarcastically or in explanation, but many Tweeters think this is a valid attack on evolution.</div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiqC_kIxfFI2v6mkR_nMhgwzqjlbZo0k92mVGOJEQTEIpQyJ1_9DOERBL9d7nAYeSMJllp8VUUYVwtfnj9d4prN4rBpDqrtUWNY06HdBVEnbPkiZvHRcbUQb5Xy7w-iVpFWsMjG9COdUw/s1600/only+a+theory.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="553" data-original-width="627" height="282" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiqC_kIxfFI2v6mkR_nMhgwzqjlbZo0k92mVGOJEQTEIpQyJ1_9DOERBL9d7nAYeSMJllp8VUUYVwtfnj9d4prN4rBpDqrtUWNY06HdBVEnbPkiZvHRcbUQb5Xy7w-iVpFWsMjG9COdUw/s320/only+a+theory.png" width="320" /></a></div>
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kjhg</div>
Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-24016362480467327152018-03-13T08:44:00.000+09:002018-03-13T08:44:11.762+09:00Science can't explain it, therefore...Creationists often finish this sentence with, "....therefore God did it" which is not a good use of logic. The proper formulation naturally is, "Science can't explain it, therefore we don't know how it happened." "We don't know" obviously does not equal "God". Well, this is obvious to anyone who thinks about it for a moment.<br />
<br />
ICR did not think about it in posting this article about new research into <a href="http://www.icr.org/article/secular-scientists-earths-inner-core/">the formation of the Earth's Core</a>.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
This means that secular scientists cannot, at present, plausibly account for the existence of the Earth’s inner core! So, if naturalistic processes cannot account for the existence of the inner core, then it appears to have been supernaturally created. This is what the Bible teaches and creation scientists strongly affirm.</blockquote>
Obviously this is a form of the God of the Gaps argument. "We don't know how this one thing happened, therefore God did it." And the problem with that argument is that God's reach is ever shortening. We didn't know how traits were inherited; now we do. We couldn't picture a halfway point between fish and amphibians; now we have examples of what that creature would look like.<div>
<a href="https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps"><br /></a><div>
<a href="https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps">Rationalwiki explains the concept</a>.</div>
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Some more examples:</div>
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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb3AFMe2OQY">Bill O'reilly telling us</a> (Youtube link, specific quote at 1:45),</div>
<div>
"Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You! can't explain that."</div>
<div>
Nevermind that we can indeed explain it (gravity has been well-understood for a few centuries), if we couldn't, that wouldn't mean god had a hand it in the process.</div>
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<a href="https://www.quora.com/How-can-scientists-prove-that-random-particles-can-organize-themselves-into-a-human-brain-After-all-the-3-pound-human-brain-is-the-most-complex-and-orderly-arrangement-of-matter-in-the-universe-I-don-t-understand/answer/Mark-Finneran-1/comment/55833458">Mike Finneran on Quora says</a>,</div>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
And since abiogenesis cannot account for the origin of life, you are stuck with a creator God. A God that made mankind in his image and likeness.</blockquote>
Note to Mike; we really aren't stuck with that.<br />
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More to come...</div>
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Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-83438141954092491942017-09-25T08:32:00.001+09:002017-09-25T08:32:33.853+09:00"Creationists aren't anti-science"Well, it depends on what scientific fields we are talking about. Of course on this blog I discuss evolution and also some aspects of physics, but also medicine.<br />
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I feel I must immediately add another caveat. This time at least, I am not talking about JWs and their deadly 'no blood transfusions' policy.<br />
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No, I'm<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2017/09/18/dont-trust-doctors-just-read-proverbs/"> today offering a link describing the anti-science views of the Southern Baptist Theological Society</a>.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
It involves our old friends at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where a long-time professor of pastoral care has just been pushed out following harsh criticism by one of his fellow professors — a “biblical counseling” advocate named Heath Lambert. All but one of the phrases in quotation marks above are things that Lambert has actually said about psychology, which he rejects completely.<br />The other quotation is from his boss, Southern Seminary’s president, Al Mohler, who shares Lambert’s claim that anything beyond Bible-only counseling involves a rejection of “the wisdom that can come only from God and God’s word.”</blockquote>
Those quotes?<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="box-sizing: border-box;">No one tried to twist our reliance on medical doctors into an accusation that we lacked faith in the sufficiency of such “biblical therapy,” telling us that “In this therapeutic age, it is really important that we think as Christians … that we employ authentically Christian thinking, biblical thinking, to human life, and that we do this in a way that, without apology, confronts and critiques the wisdom of the age and seeks the wisdom that can come only from God and God’s word.”</span></blockquote>
The blog post author, Fred Clark, was describing the difference in opinions over treatment for tennis elbow and psychiatric care. To add the obvious snark, mental problems are obviously demons and should only be treated with Bible.Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-79749470523834470162017-09-17T08:04:00.000+09:002017-09-17T08:04:09.921+09:00Hat or Answer?As<a href="https://twitter.com/TakeThatDarwin/status/909187536253317121"> Take That Darwin</a> notes, this man chose hat.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjllDooVvhjbY-_YwwIZtPLUJ_wbuUPOLogn9F2xDgvcOkdnGyXIqL7VajGmK_1PnGDd72RxSlyTOAYyjZqupcqeZyvqL3xSNwXimVUpZs31gS4F1JdeyIF_cDYvO1zbVOmut4j0ma4wA/s1600/answer+or+hat.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="994" data-original-width="614" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjllDooVvhjbY-_YwwIZtPLUJ_wbuUPOLogn9F2xDgvcOkdnGyXIqL7VajGmK_1PnGDd72RxSlyTOAYyjZqupcqeZyvqL3xSNwXimVUpZs31gS4F1JdeyIF_cDYvO1zbVOmut4j0ma4wA/s320/answer+or+hat.png" width="197" /></a></div>
<br />Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-57862256451847929262017-09-11T20:30:00.000+09:002017-09-11T20:30:26.674+09:00Carl Zimmer and fused chromosomesMan, the lengths creationists, and ID is a form of creationism, will go <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2012/07/19/the-mystery-of-the-missing-chromosome-with-a-special-guest-appearance-from-facebook-creationists/#.WbZPxsgjHIV">to hide and protect their unsupported claims.</a>Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-21800094600967327232017-09-09T11:06:00.001+09:002017-09-09T11:08:58.804+09:00Fine tuning, the constant, unchanging laws of physics and Christian Creationists <div style="text-align: center;">
Fine tuning,</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
the constant, unchanging laws of physics</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
and the Christian Creationists who don't understand what those words mean.</div>
<a href="https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/09/07/i-think-ive-been-sinning-incorrectly/">PZ Myers looked recently at a Tweet by AiG's Ken Ham</a> that was quoted in a <a href="http://www.kentucky.com/news/state/article171539502.html">Kentucky newspaper</a>.<br />
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Reporting on <a href="https://twitter.com/aigkenham/status/905382966775435267">Ken Ham's tweet</a> about hurricanes.<br />
<b>"Devastating Hurricanes-reminder we live in a fallen groaning world as a result of our sin against a Holy God-it's our fault not God's fault" </b><br />
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So the clear problem is, as described in Myer's response (the first link); "What causes hurricanes? If you asked me that question, I’d mumble something about rising water vapor in equatorial waters condensing and releasing latent heat, pumping energy into the air. A hurricane starts as hot, moist air rising into the atmosphere."<br />
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The physics of weather is well-understood. It sure looks like Ham is saying that before Eve bit the apple, the physics of the world was entirely different.<br />
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Ham, and other creationists, make a similar claim in saying that rainbows did not exist before Noah's Ark. So before these events, temperature related changes between liquid phase and gas phase did not occur? Winds were not generated by temperature changes in oceans? And gases in our atmosphere did not reflect and refract light the way they do now?<br />
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Remember, a common Creationist claim is about fine-tuning. If we changed one little thing about the laws of physics, the world would not be possible. But changing how light works is not trivial. Changing how temperature affects atoms and molecules to create weather is not trivial. According to the fine-tuning argument, if the laws of physics cannot be changed even a little then sin cannot be the cause of hurricanes. If sin is the cause of hurricanes, then the laws of physics are hugely malleable.<br />
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I'll finish with a pair of comments from the Myer's blog post:<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiSz5claecR4PBkIklJramh8A5MbsRCdDaJWt7rorqC0m5EXNwiufyG9h-H8DrCV5lZOLaIq34TWKF1CwOTin96rEmTBjt7EmI2xxnmioxzHPqsLNVQ-_daAq7e4nG_GS8X3kmC4c-WQQ/s1600/earth+rotate.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="357" data-original-width="879" height="129" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiSz5claecR4PBkIklJramh8A5MbsRCdDaJWt7rorqC0m5EXNwiufyG9h-H8DrCV5lZOLaIq34TWKF1CwOTin96rEmTBjt7EmI2xxnmioxzHPqsLNVQ-_daAq7e4nG_GS8X3kmC4c-WQQ/s320/earth+rotate.png" width="320" /></a></div>
<br />Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-43989667165736550432017-08-23T14:52:00.000+09:002017-08-24T08:42:33.273+09:00Ken Ham on Humans and "Survival of the Fittest"In a post titled, <a href="https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2017/08/22/did-humans-domesticate-ourselves/">Did Humans Domesticate Ourselves</a>, AiG's Ken Ham demonstrates why I started this blog in the first place.<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
So it’s survival of the fittest, except when, <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/29/science/evolution-of-beauty-richard-prum-darwin-sexual-selection.html?hpw">according to a different study</a>, it’s survival of the prettiest, survival of the most moral, or the survival of the least aggressive (according to these studies). It’s a constantly changing story because it’s just that—a story.</blockquote>
Survival of the Fittest. The phrase that Darwin didn't really like and which can appear a tautology is a shorthand for how natural selection works. Honestly, it is such a shorthand, like a too-long acronym, that it is only understood if you study the subject long enough.<br />
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One would think that Ham, founder of Answers in Genesis, would have spent that long, and more, studying evolution and its jargon. Apparently <a href="https://answersingenesis.org/about/history/">AiG started in 2007</a> but Ham has been involved in promoting creationism since the late seventies. Nearly forty years and he still doesn't understand the terms he attacks. Or, more sinisterly, he does but also understands the rubes do not.<br />
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So survival of the fittest: Google Search has this definition open in a window on the results page: "<span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "arial" , sans-serif; font-size: x-small;">the continued existence of organisms that are best adapted to their environment, with the extinction of others, as a concept in the Darwinian theory of evolution."</span><br />
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Hmm. <a href="https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/survival-of-the-fittest">Collins Dictionary</a> has a usage close to what Ham seems to think it means:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
You can use the <a href="https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/survival">survival</a> of the fittest to <a href="https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/refer">refer</a> to a situation in which only the strongest people or things <a href="https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/continue">continue</a> to live or be <a href="https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/successful">successful</a>, while the others die or <a href="https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fail">fail</a>.</blockquote>
The thing is, 'fit' does not mean most physically fit, nor does it mean strongest or the best fighter. Rabbits are overwhelming Australia but fights between them and kangaroos would involve the latter kicking the former into space. Clearly physical power is not the only measure here. For rabbits, it would be the ability to burrow and hide and the large litters they produce.<br />
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'Fitness' in humans can indeed be measured in ability to cooperate and a group that cooperates will more likely survive than a similar number of individuals.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
...why are there still so many bullies? If “those who got along, got ahead,” how do you explain the many brutal dictators (such as Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini) and others throughout history who got ahead by killing people? Human history is not a story of increasing peace and harmony as we have supposedly learned to get along. It’s a story littered with evil and bullies...</blockquote>
Statistically, humans do get along better than in the past. Human history is indeed a story of increasing peace and harmony - Ham gets this wrong. Basically all forms of violence around the world have declined. Again, this is statistical, there are horrible acts of violence in many places and on many occasions, but the total number and number of victims is declining. See T<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature">he Better Angels</a> for details and many, many graphs.<br />
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Perhaps the most horrifying sentence:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: white; color: #3f4041; font-family: "lato" , sans-serif; font-size: 17.6px;">This item was written with the assistance of AiG’s research team.</span></blockquote>
So it is not merely Ham's poor understanding but that of the entire organization.<br />
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Added later: At <a href="https://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2017/08/22/ken-ham-says-evolution-makes-no-sense/#comments">The Sensuous Curmudgeon</a>, a commenter reminded me that AiG staff are required to believe this stuff. THey've signed a statement that they will do so.Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-57919845515964371752017-07-27T11:37:00.000+09:002017-07-27T11:37:10.941+09:00 The history of fossil evidence as a metaphor for ID claims.<span style="background-color: white;">The following is a comment I left in a <a href="https://www.quora.com/How-do-people-who-believe-in-macro-evolution-reconcile-the-irreducible-complexity-that-comprises-all-life/answer/Donna-Fernstrom/comment/39260444?__filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1277142152">Quora argument</a>. The argument was becoming messy due to the constraints of fitting it in the comments box at Quora (or anywhere) so I will also put it here. Our argument was wide-ranging and getting stuck in minutiae so I felt this overview of my position with occasional short quotes was the clearest way to describe my position.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: white;"><b>The history of fossil evidence as a metaphor for ID claims</b>.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">In Darwin's day, there was little evidence for (or against) evolution. There was excellent evidence but not a lot of it. In those days without access to molecular data, fossils were considered the best way to support (or not) evolutionary claims.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Very soon after Darwin published his theory, Archaeopteryx was found. Now there are around twelve specimens found. And yet, that was only one example of a transitional fossil. It was reasonable to say, "We have no fish-amphibian fossil and I cannot even picture what one would look like. There is no way a fish could evolve into a land animal." Now, there is a very fine set of transitional fossils showing in detail how such evolution could occur. (<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="wikipedia.org" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils#Fish_to_tetrapods" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("//qsf.ec.quoracdn.net/-3-images.new_grid.external_link.svg-26-aef78ead48f1f1e2.svg"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia</a></span>)</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Now, similar arguments are proposed against evolution using nearly the same wording but dealing with molecular evidence. A century earlier, the claim was, "fish can't evolve arms" and now the claim is, "bacteria can't evolve a flagellum."</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">One of the ways the claims are similar is in the maturity (or lack) in the field. In the late 1800's, few dinosaurs were known and fossils were not organized or described in ways that could be shared. Now, the human genome has been recorded and others are being recorded but the technology is still in its infancy. Just as with a century ago, "We don't know how this could happen" mostly means "We don't know yet." For the sake of argument, it could mean, "...because a Designer did it" but the argument has the same value as when I cannot find my phone.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Creationists and ID proponents need positive evidence but all they have is negative evidence; "We don't know therefore God/ Designer."</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">With fossils, many major and minor transitions have been found and more will still be found. We will never find fossils of all the living things that ever existed (We don't yet have skeletal fossils of chimpanzees and we know they exist. All we have, and only found a deade ago, are fossilized chimp teeth.)</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">With ID, the relevant molecules are even less likely to be preserved. Large bones are more likely than small bones to be fossilized. Moecules are nearly infinitely smaller and have no mechanism for fossilization. Even if one fully accepts that bacterial flagellae evolved, there is no obvous reason to expect to find examples of how parts of it could form independently. The flagellum most often discussed consists of forty or so proteins but a useful part of bacteria is a secretory system that consists of twenty of those proteins so the flagellum by definition is not irreducible. What happens if we cannot find any other transitions or pieces? It means we didn't find them. For ID claims to be accepted, they need positive evidence of their Designer, yet they claim this is impossible. A second best would be to explain why they expect such transitional molecules should be findable.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">They do not, so the best evidence ID has is, "We don't know, therefore Designer." It is scientifically vacuous.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">All I want, all secular science wants, is a positive claim for ID that can be tested. Evolution has passed this test already.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Brian: "Give evidence that is not "we don't know" for any ID claim. "</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Answer: <i>Uh.... sure. We KNOW that codes which transmit complex sophisticated information requiring action alwaya has a code maker.</i></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">No we don't. We only know of current examples in the infancy of our understanding of DNA. We only know that we don't know. You are demonstrating "We don't know how it could happen, therefore God."</span></div>
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<b style="background-color: white;">The superficiality of homology arguments.</b></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Brett:</span></div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<i style="background-color: white;">For example bats and dolphins have VERY sophisticated echolocation systems. I'm thinking evolutionists will claim these systems, although similar arose indepentently... analagous. Likewise with teeth... Your belief they are homologous is based on beliefs in transitionals. (And if memory is correct, archaepteryx teeth are not at all like dino teeth).</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">At first glance, the evidence appears to support both common ancestry and common designer. Humans and apes have many identical genes: If they evolved from the same ancestor or were created by the same God, this is reasonable. At first glance, homology doesn't get you very far.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">But when you go beyond superficialities, you find that common ancestry is much better supported.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">As an educator, if I give a multiple chjoice test and two students have identical and correct answers, I cannot determine if one cheated. But if I give an essay question test and the students have idential answers, I do have some reason to suspect cheating. And even more, if they have identical wrong answers, I have even greater support for my claim. In this metaphor, I modestly stand in for a designer, giving the same information to all. But cheating stands in for common ancestry- the information didn't come from a God but from another student and wrong answers could be equivalent to ERVs or poor design choices.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Examples of back design choices include the vertebrate eye wired backward and the laryngeal nerve found in vertebrates. In the former case, the design is unecessarily sloppy and causes a blind spot while in the latter, the design makes great sense in fish but beccomes increasingly awkward as tetrapod necks get longer (<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="rationalwiki.org" href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Laryngeal_nerve" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("//qsf.ec.quoracdn.net/-3-images.new_grid.external_link.svg-26-aef78ead48f1f1e2.svg"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">Laryngeal nerve - RationalWiki</a></span>).</span></div>
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<i style="background-color: white;">Science has found that our eyes have a fibre optic type design and the inverted retina design is superior /optimal.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">I am not sure if we argued this in a different thread but someone gave me a link to an article on light transmission through the nerve cords and how there was no or little interference in the signal. It did not at all address the blind spot issue I look forward to your link to an article that states that the vertebrate eye is superior/optimal to the cephalopod eye, in aquatic conditions. That is, fish have the same backward wired eye we do so comparisons need to be shown with them. If our eye is superior to the cephalopod eye in all cases, why do cephalopods not have them? I have seen superficial claims on the subject by creationists that always leave out the fact that fish have the same eye we do.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Brian: "You believe there was a ‘super-cat, one with all the genetic information needed for all known (living and extinct) 42 species of felines. And their genes were broken until they fit their current niches. This is testable . Alright, show me the broken ‘tiger’ genes in bobcats and the broken ‘bobcat’ genes in tigers. Heck, show me how a cat with every single one of its genes operational could survive. The ones for thick coats and thin coats. The ones for strength like a tiger and speed like a cheetah. This is all testable so I look forward to your answer."</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Answer: <i>No, it is not testable. We don't know what the genome was like thousands of years ago. And all genes in an animal are not operational. ... and what I said is that it MAY be correct (as does the article). Both secular and Biblical scientists hypothesize ancestry...for example, that all dogs may be descendants of a dog similar to wolf.</i></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">So to start with, you are immediately claiming that your earlier claim is not testable. Okay, it is then not science. I should be done here. Then you bring up dogs for no good reason and repeat that we are discussing the amount of common ancestry. I know that; that was my point. In fact, none of your protests have any value. We don't have to know what the genome was like thousands (or millions or billions) of years ago. All we need to do is look at what genes have been conserved and even more, what broken genes are still being carried. Because, yes, not all genes are operational, they are broken, and the fact that they are still around strongly supports common ancestry.</span></div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: q_serif, Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">And why isn't your claim testable? It might not be now as I don't know what genomes have been recorded but if they are recorded, it should be simple to show -as you say - non-operational genes. That is precisely what I am asking for.</span></div>
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<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<i style="background-color: white;">ERV's are consistent with evolutionary hierarchies...except when they aren't.</i></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: q_serif, Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">Okay, what ERVs are not consistent with evolutionary hierarchies?</span></div>
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<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<i style="background-color: white;">Science is in the process of discovering these short strands (ERV's) have function (almost as if by design).</i></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: q_serif, Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">This might or might not be true but it is not relevant. ERVs are delivered by viruses. If we carry viral DNA that matches viral DNA in other apes, that is support for evolution no matter how useful or not it is.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Another example of common ancestry vs common designer is found in anti-freeze fish near the two poles. Evolutionists would argue that the two species of fish, so far apart, could not share their DNA and so the anti-freeze genes must be different. The common designer claim is that organisms in identical situations will have identical solutions. In fact, the two fish have different genes for combatting the cold environment. Perhaps God is giving one species a tougher time than the other?</span></div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: q_serif, Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;"><b>Archaeopteryx and dinosuar teeth</b>.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">First off, we need to keep in mind that according to evolutionary history, from the first dinosaur to now, we have had three times more time with dinosaur existing than not. That is, dinosaurs existed from 240 million years ago to 65 million years ago so that is 180 millions with dinosaurs compared to 65 without. There is good reason to expect dinosaur teeth to be quite varied. I would not expect Archae's teeth to match those of herbivores, for example.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">I can find nothing to support your claim. Support, please.</span></div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: q_serif, Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<b style="background-color: white;">Bat and dolphin echolocation.</b></div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: q_serif, Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">I am not sure what you expect to find here. The two animals live in very different environments. If the two sonar arrangements are not the same, it would prove nothing. How similar would they need to be to demonstrate common designer?</span></div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: q_serif, Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">Some differences here, supporting neither side in the abstract: <span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="bioacoustics.info" href="http://www.bioacoustics.info/article/echolocation-dolphins-dolphin-bat-comparison" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("//qsf.ec.quoracdn.net/-3-images.new_grid.external_link.svg-26-aef78ead48f1f1e2.svg"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">Echolocation in dolphins with a dolphin-bat comparison</a></span></span></div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: q_serif, Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">This article describes the similarities and differences between the two types of animals while also pointing out that we, in addition to many other animals, can manage at least a simple form of echolocation -this point is important in considering how different is different enough to support a position. If bats and dolphins are great at it but also many other species are capable of it, then common ancestry and design claims are weak or complicated. <span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="wikibooks.org" href="https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Engineering_Acoustics/Echolocation_in_Bats_and_Dolphins" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("//qsf.ec.quoracdn.net/-3-images.new_grid.external_link.svg-26-aef78ead48f1f1e2.svg"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">Engineering Acoustics/Echolocation in Bats and Dolphins</a></span></span></div>
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<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">Bryan: "As the Ham-Nye debate illustrated, when asked if something would ever change their mind, Nye said, "Evidence" while Ham said, "Nothing".</span></div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">Answer:<i> I think what that shows is some dishonesty from Nye. From the little I know of him, I have never heard him say he is willing to honestly consider the Creator God of tbe Bible</i>.</span></div>
</blockquote>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Your point is irrelevant because many religious people accept evolution. And do you really think that people are are free to choose what they believe are less open-minded than people forced to sign a statement of belief on the subject? A statement required for their job? Individuals are going to be as biased or not but only creationism requires such bias.</span></div>
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<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<i style="background-color: white;">If he is like most evolutionists, he interprets evidence only within his worldview of materialism.</i></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: q_serif, Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">I think you mean "scientists" rather than 'evolutionists' because evidence can only be interpreted by assuming naturalism. Otherwise, you get the whole "Did or Why did Adam have a belly button?" or Last Thursdayism problems. If you don't want to accept science, don't. But science cannot show supernatural action. This is why we accept gravity and do not claim, except satirically, <span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="wikipedia.org" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_falling" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("//qsf.ec.quoracdn.net/-3-images.new_grid.external_link.svg-26-aef78ead48f1f1e2.svg"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">Intelligent falling - Wikipedia</a></span></span></div>
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<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<i style="background-color: white;">So Brian...if your best arguments for common ancestry are proved false by science, are you ready to consider... the evidence is consistent with and helps support the truth of Biblical creation?</i></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: q_serif, Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">Well, I'm still waiting for even more claim is for common design that is more than superficial. Note that showing evolution is false (except for micro-evolution, which is no different from evolution and a convoluted creationist way) is not support for creationism. We haven’t even looked at how ridiculous creationist claims for their side are. And of course, we would have to look at which creationist you want to believe as there are many competing - but equally stupid - claims for how the Earth was flooded and where the water went afterwards.</span></div>
Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-24422985914958364642017-07-24T06:22:00.001+09:002017-07-24T06:22:27.199+09:00Transitional fossils Sci Am wants us to find<div class="tr_bq">
<a href="https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/fossils-we-want-to-find/">Darren Naish would like us to find a few specific fossils</a>.</div>
<blockquote>
An early synapsid with extensive soft tissue preservation. At the risk of seeming like someone obsessed with soft tissues and life appearance (read on and you’ll get what I’m saying), high on my list is the discovery of an early synapsid – a stem-mammal – that provides us with good information on integument. It looks likely at the moment that hair, whiskers and so on evolved in cynodonts prior to the origin of mammals (or mammaliaforms if you prefer), but were these features present any earlier than this? </blockquote>
-<br />
<blockquote>
A little pterosaur in amber. The idea that we might discover intact Mesozoic animals preserved in amber once seemed like a pipe dream. But no more: we now have large numbers of Cretaceous lizards in amber, a partial tail from a small non-bird theropod, and assorted archaic birds, including the better part of a baby enantiornithine.</blockquote>
-<br />
More of the wish list at the link.<br />
<br />
<br />Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-58316334560877832532017-07-16T19:08:00.000+09:002017-07-16T19:08:10.443+09:00Creationist in Peterborough doesn't know what he's talking about.<div class="tr_bq">
The <a href="http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/2017/07/14/letters-to-the-editor-july-14-2017">Peterborough Examiner has a letter to the editor</a> that anyone halfway educated on the subject would be embarrassed by.</div>
<br />
Here are the relevant bits interspersed with my commentary:<br />
<blockquote>
However, my concern centres on his treatment of the theory of evolution. It is only a theory. He tells it as a fact. Never have the concepts largely developed by Charles Darwin in the mid-19th century been proven by "hard " science.</blockquote>
Sigh. Only a theory. Poor Dr Dyer is unaware that science, hard or "hard" or otherwise, has proven nothing.<br />
From <a href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/just-a-theory-7-misused-science-words/">Sci Am</a> (quotes from sources other than Dr Dyer's letter are in red):<br />
<blockquote>
<span style="color: red;">Part of the problem is that the word "theory" means something very different in lay language than it does in science: A <a href="http://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html">scientific theory</a> is an explanation of some aspect of the natural world that has been substantiated through repeated experiments or testing. But to the average Jane or Joe, a theory is just an idea that lives in someone's head, rather than an explanation rooted in experiment and testing.</span></blockquote>
The thing is, there is plenty of support for evolution, from fossils to the nested hierarchies of the Linnaeus classification system, to ERVS to replicated errors demonstrating a common ancestor.<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
In 1989 the mighty Soviet Union crashed into rubble. Soon the Deputy Minister of Education for all of Russia travelled to California to attend a conference of Christian educators. He spoke to the assembly, and I quote, "For 70 years we have shut God out of our country and it has done us great harm.</blockquote>
Blindly equating evolution with atheism, Dyer imagines that shutting God out of Russia is relevant to the discussion of evolution. Obviously, he is unaware of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism">Lysenkoism</a>, a pseudoscientific belief about biology that Russians followed instead of evolution. From the Wikipedia link above:<br />
<blockquote>
<span style="color: red;">The pseudo-scientific ideas of Lysenkoism assumed the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inheritance_of_acquired_characteristics">heritability of acquired characteristics</a>.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#cite_note-1">[1]</a> Lysenko's theory rejected <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance">Mendelian inheritance</a> and the concept of the "<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene">gene</a>"; it departed from <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinian_evolution">Darwinian evolutionary</a> theory by rejecting <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection">natural selection</a>.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#cite_note-Perversion_of_Knowledge-2">[2]</a> Proponents falsely claimed to have discovered, among many other things, that <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rye">rye</a> could transform into wheat and wheat into barley, that weeds could spontaneously transmute into food grains, and that "natural cooperation" was observed in nature as opposed to "natural selection".<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#cite_note-Perversion_of_Knowledge-2">[2]</a> Lysenkoism promised extraordinary advances in <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_reproduction">breeding</a> and in agriculture that never came about.<br /><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin">Joseph Stalin</a> supported the campaign. More than 3,000 mainstream <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biologist">biologists</a> were sent to prison, fired,<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#cite_note-3">[3]</a> and others were executed as part of a campaign instigated by Lysenko to suppress his scientific opponents</span></blockquote>
He is also unaware that many Christians accept evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life on Earth. <a href="http://www.theclergyletterproject.org/Christian_Clergy/ChrClergyLtr.htm">The Clergy Project Letter</a> has more than 13,000 signatures of American active Christian clergyfolk who accept evolution.<br />
<br />
<blockquote>
I was invited into a `history classroom and met the older professor. He commented, " I understand you are a Christian." When I affirmed that I was, he pointed to his desk, and declared, "That is one of my text books. It was the Bible! In a Russian public high school the teacher held to the truths of the Bible as authoritative for his history lesson!</blockquote>
I will now step away from exclusively discussing evolution and dip into politics. Russia is not a good place. It was not before 1989 and it is not now. I would not want to associate Christianity with the way Russia currently works.<br />
<blockquote>
I am saddened that such unproven assumptions are given to our generation and labelling as Truth. In the words of the Russian educator, "We must bring God back, and we must begin with our youth."<br />Dr. Stanley R. Dyer<br />Peterborough</blockquote>
It sure seems like we should first start with educating Dr Dyer on the subject he tries to argue so he doesn't make himself and all Creationists look foolish.Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-84725155156953557092017-03-04T08:25:00.005+09:002023-05-25T06:32:50.514+09:00Evolution means fish to bird?<div class="tr_bq"><i>This addition will make the timeline a mess but it is too perfect to post at the end. I wrote this blog post on March 4, 2017. It is today March 2, 2023 and I found another '</i><b>fish evolve into bird'</b><i> remark! Almost exactly six years!</i></div><div class="tr_bq"><i><a href="Does evolution require faith, or is there observable evidence of species evolution (ex. fish evolving to bird) to support evolution?">Does evolution require faith, or is there observable evidence of species evolution (ex. fish evolving to bird) to support evolution?</a></i></div><div class="tr_bq"><i>----hee hee hee-----</i></div><div class="tr_bq"><i>Original post</i></div><div class="tr_bq"><i><br /></i></div><div class="tr_bq">
These people don't know what the word 'evolution' means. I will add to this post but I wanted to share the examples I have collected so far.</div>
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Added Mar 11. <a href="https://twitter.com/Blurred_Trees/status/839464397399535616">Bacteria to rodent</a>.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjLHAmFpA-FTZN56D9l4ID2aDvUm09vsjYG37a435DM4gvh21jhvMoGZ1T7ygm4ca2EDRkHKMg_Ivmh-LtSwdakCQNBcd07mnFpDMeR-z5vVTC3YZ4cSru-nhHOPKxlez4LF2styryHzw/s1600/bacteria+to+rodent.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="148" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjLHAmFpA-FTZN56D9l4ID2aDvUm09vsjYG37a435DM4gvh21jhvMoGZ1T7ygm4ca2EDRkHKMg_Ivmh-LtSwdakCQNBcd07mnFpDMeR-z5vVTC3YZ4cSru-nhHOPKxlez4LF2styryHzw/s320/bacteria+to+rodent.png" width="320" /></a></div>
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<div style="text-align: center;">
----Original Post --------</div>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en">
<div dir="ltr" lang="en">
No<br />
Evolution is adaptation within a species, not change from one kind to another ie fish to a bird<a href="https://twitter.com/ZachTastic24">@ZachTastic24</a></div>
— John Yuma (@John_Yuma) <a href="https://twitter.com/John_Yuma/status/831689728223219712">February 15, 2017</a></blockquote>
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On Aug 6, 2018, the same hypothetical came up. I presume this is independent.<br />
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en">
<div dir="ltr" lang="en">
Prove a fish turned into a bird.</div>
— Amother InIsrael (@bcox64) <a href="https://twitter.com/bcox64/status/1026528291170201601?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 6, 2018</a></blockquote>
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A comment to <a href="https://www.quora.com/Can-you-give-an-observable-evidence-in-regards-to-Darwinian-Evolution-not-adaptation-not-speciation-but-a-change-of-kinds/answers/21611621?__filter__&__nsrc__=2&__snid3__=778347913">an answer I gave on Quora</a>.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiOJSBYVIIhaEyu7DgWixeah3JKEKPCf9eaEpOj0lWakx7xbRrYGNvSQZ_bqRW7y-XUcepvEkuuFp9ZMBRzrTEzdcmlS5Jp7GBYkVzCycM-J3mDABbHFahZNF1EUh-zl7na6aHHMo1W_Q/s1600/fish+to+lizard.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="163" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiOJSBYVIIhaEyu7DgWixeah3JKEKPCf9eaEpOj0lWakx7xbRrYGNvSQZ_bqRW7y-XUcepvEkuuFp9ZMBRzrTEzdcmlS5Jp7GBYkVzCycM-J3mDABbHFahZNF1EUh-zl7na6aHHMo1W_Q/s320/fish+to+lizard.png" width="320" /></a></div>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en">
<div dir="ltr" lang="en">
Species adapt<br />
Just give us the evidence proving a single cell became a dog<a href="https://twitter.com/findtheeswing1">@findtheeswing1</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/A_M_Perez">@A_M_Perez</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/12voltman60">@12voltman60</a></div>
— John Yuma (@John_Yuma) <a href="https://twitter.com/John_Yuma/status/831658165083205632">February 15, 2017</a></blockquote>
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<br />
and from the same argument, in photo form rather than a full list of embedded tweets:<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhAeEyGOyEf6hHNXj1xwdERTU4QJbICdI33uBEop73UBCoiI0KElnjWwT24Yd68-nX1EOaCHhrmPcIClMIgk8YW8HAtnV5UNloI1zJ2Uag8nhseUU8KS87RFa25eP6Iuvf6j86L4F1zdg/s1600/fish+become+bird.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhAeEyGOyEf6hHNXj1xwdERTU4QJbICdI33uBEop73UBCoiI0KElnjWwT24Yd68-nX1EOaCHhrmPcIClMIgk8YW8HAtnV5UNloI1zJ2Uag8nhseUU8KS87RFa25eP6Iuvf6j86L4F1zdg/s320/fish+become+bird.png" width="305" /></a></div>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en">
<div dir="ltr" lang="en">
<a href="https://twitter.com/Atheist_DH">@Atheist_DH</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/FizZiKs815">@FizZiKs815</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/CanAgnosAtheist">@CanAgnosAtheist</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/SholaDogg">@SholaDogg</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/AnctNightmare">@AnctNightmare</a> With a fish turning into a Human,And nothing created everything!Theory!</div>
— Chris Davis (@christian130383) <a href="https://twitter.com/christian130383/status/830872090320498688">February 12, 2017</a></blockquote>
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---<br />
<a href="https://www.quora.com/How-can-we-scientifically-prove-Charles-Darwin-wrong/answer/Brian-Dean-9?__sncid__=369751404&__filter__=all">From Quora a comment to the linked answer</a>:<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiKHF6KjXFyWI_K2MaSOx1GepTwISDxA1p6ufK8lUD1RBkBGP3BvfCXw2dC5GrdRCMvokdVnkKZ1pjkohwUTlHgUVNJU1muLjS6-jpfF0zkcdkIdvqIL8ErkkhRJgMhTKdJWIZDpElRYw/s1600/frog+with+wings.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="95" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiKHF6KjXFyWI_K2MaSOx1GepTwISDxA1p6ufK8lUD1RBkBGP3BvfCXw2dC5GrdRCMvokdVnkKZ1pjkohwUTlHgUVNJU1muLjS6-jpfF0zkcdkIdvqIL8ErkkhRJgMhTKdJWIZDpElRYw/s320/frog+with+wings.png" width="320" /></a></div>
---<br />
Added hours after posting:<br />
<a href="https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-if-fossils-are-discovered-that-look-exactly-like-a-creationists-strawman-of-evolution/answer/Shurn-Heng">A Quora answer to a question regarding creationists' concept of fossils defending the theory of evolution</a>. T-rex to chicken, wolf to insect...<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhFAG78yGH6gXL7u75flIhbRjxS0OHHZiQBzLkwJzs4lSv6AEHyEoqyHO_OCAianMuyfsOAgvbttLg_-AJegPmhZOV5J8sIuC-LaAq0iXnurm_1c0j3ywkEDsJfsNXhBzLCpMNBGP4G-A/s1600/wolf+to+insect.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="118" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhFAG78yGH6gXL7u75flIhbRjxS0OHHZiQBzLkwJzs4lSv6AEHyEoqyHO_OCAianMuyfsOAgvbttLg_-AJegPmhZOV5J8sIuC-LaAq0iXnurm_1c0j3ywkEDsJfsNXhBzLCpMNBGP4G-A/s320/wolf+to+insect.png" width="320" /></a></div>
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<a href="http://www.icr.org/article/evidence-for-young-world/">In the field of physics and ICR</a> (I have bolded the word '<b>evolutionist</b>s'; other bolding is original):<br />
<blockquote>
The observed rotation speeds are so fast that if our galaxy were more than <b>a few hundred million years old</b>, it would be a featureless disc of stars instead of its present spiral shape.1 Yet our galaxy is supposed to be at least 10 billion years old. <b>Evolutionists</b> call this "the winding-up dilemma," which they have known about for fifty years.</blockquote>
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<blockquote>
Many comets have typical ages of less than <b>10,000</b> years.4 <b>Evolutionists</b> explain this discrepancy by assuming that (a) comets come from an unobserved spherical "Oort cloud" well beyond the orbit of Pluto, ...</blockquote>
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Another:<br />
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Transitional fossil records have NEVER been found. Just haven't. People believe anything these Libs push. SEEN ONE OF THESE? <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Hoax?src=hash">#Hoax</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Facts?src=hash">#Facts</a> <a href="https://t.co/VtMwiVe9uS">pic.twitter.com/VtMwiVe9uS</a></div>
— Brad Carrington (@BrotherBradUSA) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrotherBradUSA/status/888850689040027650">July 22, 2017</a></blockquote>
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July 19, 2018<br />
<a href="https://www.quora.com/Can-you-give-an-observable-evidence-in-regards-to-Darwinian-Evolution-not-adaptation-not-speciation-but-a-change-of-kinds/answer/Glenn-Monson-1/comment/68049028">From Quora</a>:<br />
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If you can show me where a bird turned into a fish, or a reptile into a mammal , or heck just show me one shred of evidence among phylum, where a tiger turned into a zebra both animals </blockquote>
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From Aug 6, 2018. <a href="https://twitter.com/capfantastic/status/1026301031049715714">on Twitter</a>.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjz2evMuR11vbhFmOCVu9PZP2F-HO-LAPyOpbwkMgvGLqWlf2sKvHeow5ZCm22IlUmBuqEyta03PXcJ-z2DprToN5a5eh_eisdqn6VHJx-UHr9eiePYsR7x8zheOdJ3JcmoEae0GkEcmw/s1600/whale+into+bear.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="367" data-original-width="628" height="187" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjz2evMuR11vbhFmOCVu9PZP2F-HO-LAPyOpbwkMgvGLqWlf2sKvHeow5ZCm22IlUmBuqEyta03PXcJ-z2DprToN5a5eh_eisdqn6VHJx-UHr9eiePYsR7x8zheOdJ3JcmoEae0GkEcmw/s320/whale+into+bear.png" width="320" /></a></div>
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<a href="https://www.quora.com/Darwin-calls-the-vast-lack-of-intermediate-forms-in-the-fossil-record-an-extreme-geological-imperfection-What-do-others-call-it-Does-this-prove-the-existence-of-God/answer/Brian-Dean-9/comment/80452411">Dec 13, 2018</a><br />
<a href="https://www.quora.com/Darwin-calls-the-vast-lack-of-intermediate-forms-in-the-fossil-record-an-extreme-geological-imperfection-What-do-others-call-it-Does-this-prove-the-existence-of-God/answer/Brian-Dean-9/comment/80452411">Sheryl Powell thinks tulips should turn into butterflies</a>.<br />
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<span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "q_serif" , "georgia" , "times" , "times new roman" , "hiragino kaku gothic pro" , "meiryo" , serif; font-size: 13px;">I have not found one chart that takes you from the Tulip to the Butterfly, or what ever process was needed to jump species.</span></blockquote>
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Added Dec 7, 2019<br />
From a comment to <a href="https://qr.ae/TZMAIG">How do you explain evolution</a>..., on Quora.<br />
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<span face=", "blinkmacsystemfont" , "segoe ui" , "roboto" , , "ubuntu" , "cantarell" , "helvetica neue" , sans-serif" style="background-color: #fafafa; color: #333333; font-size: 13px;">. No one has ever observed fish to men, horse to dogs, cats to frogs etc.</span></blockquote>
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<span class="ui_qtext_rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 4; word-break: break-word;">’do I see apes becoming men, dogs becoming cows, rabbits becoming snakes or fish becoming men’’? The answer will be enlightening.</span></div>
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<span class="ui_qtext_rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 4; word-break: break-word;"><span class="qlink_container" style="direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: isolate;"><a href="https://www.quora.com/According-to-evolution-if-our-ancestors-were-apes-then-how-do-atheists-think-the-first-ape-was-born-on-this-earth/answer/Matt-Wayne-28" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #2b6dad; text-decoration-line: none;">Matt Wayne’s answer to how do atheists think the first ape was born</a></span></span></div>
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It will indeed Matt. The fact that dogs don’t become cows is a prediction of the theory.</div>
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No, no one has ever seen dog-to-horse evolution. This is what needs to be ‘’observed’’, one kind becoming an entirely different one.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container" style="direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: isolate;"><a href="https://www.quora.com/Has-evolution-been-experimentally-observed-If-not-how-could-it-be-experimentally-verified/answer/Matt-Wayne-28" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #2b6dad; text-decoration-line: none;">Matt Wayne's answer to Has evolution been experimentally observed? If not, (how) could it be experimentally verified?</a></span></div>
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This gentleman thinks we need to see sharks becoming human:</div>
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<span face=", "blinkmacsystemfont" , "segoe ui" , "roboto" , , "ubuntu" , "cantarell" , "helvetica neue" , sans-serif">Are you serious here? Go look at the picture of one or a few, do they really look like they are on their way to actually walking or becoming a man, or actually anything else but what they are a shark, oh a walking shark? (LOL)</span></blockquote>
<span face=", "blinkmacsystemfont" , "segoe ui" , "roboto" , , "ubuntu" , "cantarell" , "helvetica neue" , sans-serif" style="color: #333333; font-size: 16px;">From <a href="https://qr.ae/TxuAHz">Quora</a>, </span><span face=", "blinkmacsystemfont" , "segoe ui" , "roboto" , , "ubuntu" , "cantarell" , "helvetica neue" , sans-serif" style="color: #333333;"><b>Given the discovery of walking sharks, how can creationists continue to deny Darwin</b>?</span><br />
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Feb 27, 2020<br />
<span face="-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif" style="background-color: #fafafa; color: #333333; font-size: 13px;">It is your burden of proof. Sow me evolution, and by evolution I mean the transformation of a frog into a human.</span><br />
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From <a href="https://www.quora.com/Does-the-theory-of-evolution-adequately-explain-the-origin-of-the-universe-including-the-stars-and-planets/all_comments/Berj-Manoushagian?__filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__sncid__=4266520413&__snid3__=6950179312&comment_id=129959279&comment_type=2">Berj Manoushagian's comment below his answer to "does the theory of evolution adequately explain the origin of the universe"</a></div>
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Added Oct 7, 2020 For Quora, <a href="https://qr.ae/pNkoEE">another who has no idea what evolution means</a>.
"his is not the case, people will just try to explain why there isn't fish-frogs, and flying- deer or fish growing arms and legs."<div><br /></div><div>Aug 19, 2021, from Quora:</div><div><b><a href="https://evolutionandcreationism.quora.com/Give-me-one-observable-evidence-of-a-change-of-kind-throughout-the-history-to-prove-that-the-evolution-theory-is-a-fact">Give me one observable evidence of a change of kind throughout the history to prove that the evolution theory is a fact? For example a bird becoming a lion or a fish becoming an elephant, not a bird becoming a different type of a bird?</a></b></div><div><br /></div><div>Quora is the gift that keeps on giving!</div><div>August 29, 2021:</div><div><a href="https://www.quora.com/How-did-fish-give-birth-to-monkeys-And-how-did-monkeys-give-birth-to-humans">How did fish give birth to monkeys? And how did monkeys give birth to humans?</a></div><div><br /></div><div>Thank you <a href="https://www.quora.com/profile/Randolph-Redd">Randolph Redd.</a></div><div>-</div><div>From May 2023,</div><div><a href="https://www.quora.com/If-you-sift-through-Darwins-evolutionary-tree-youll-quickly-get-stuck-For-example-the-monkey-would-be-descended-from-a-tree-dwelling-insect-Why-then-do-entire-tribes-firmly-believe-in-Darwins-evolutionary-tree">If you sift through Darwin's evolutionary tree, you'll quickly get stuck. For example, the monkey would be descended from a tree-dwelling insect. Why then do entire tribes firmly believe in Darwin's evolutionary tree</a>?</div><div><br /></div><div>Look at that wonderful question. Admire the total ignorance displayed in:</div><div><blockquote><p>For example, the monkey would be descended from a tree-dwelling insect.</p></blockquote><blockquote><p> </p></blockquote><p> I mean, who taught Abner Peter this?</p></div>Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-53422662443265219232017-02-27T10:09:00.000+09:002017-02-27T10:09:16.032+09:00Creationist conception of micro-evolution A discussion on this question (mine) at Quora resulted in <a href="https://www.quora.com/Can-Young-Earth-Creationists-provide-a-timeline-from-the-Ark-voyage-to-modern-times">my making a new TERRIBLE INFOGRAPHIC</a>!<div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi7ykAJAEkJgnVjUNO2IYbEMmMpPGa6ryCu1LEq62szhJHYXKnKe915nmCL8Y0ju50J0SvlfUwBjCJc9839eM2uqpg-1DZGi419a0qXs7zwgVphtCEtC22u1k54bMRZbNnGFlUp8TnZbg/s1600/creation+conception+of+evo+2.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="181" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi7ykAJAEkJgnVjUNO2IYbEMmMpPGa6ryCu1LEq62szhJHYXKnKe915nmCL8Y0ju50J0SvlfUwBjCJc9839eM2uqpg-1DZGi419a0qXs7zwgVphtCEtC22u1k54bMRZbNnGFlUp8TnZbg/s320/creation+conception+of+evo+2.png" width="320" /></a></div>
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Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-81012325016007050872017-02-21T03:30:00.000+09:002017-02-21T03:30:19.512+09:00Fossils and Faith<br />
Do you see a neck on this Tiktaalik fossil? <a href="http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/meetTik.html">Image from</a><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjH231slEF6Kt6acMOw_VsZOtUmgsBHWyoJUzHpvDA2fdRs0BpHwe0srcNovJAX3FFwv9-oryRJo347Zw_F7IecLZY5Kr1gZVy9OAkR9qzxymrEmbSMcf9Qyt0SX84vyMwGIo3OIeAmJQ/s1600/meetTik1.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="302" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjH231slEF6Kt6acMOw_VsZOtUmgsBHWyoJUzHpvDA2fdRs0BpHwe0srcNovJAX3FFwv9-oryRJo347Zw_F7IecLZY5Kr1gZVy9OAkR9qzxymrEmbSMcf9Qyt0SX84vyMwGIo3OIeAmJQ/s320/meetTik1.jpg" width="320" /></a></div>
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Do you see <a href="http://www.philly.com/philly/news/science/20150602_Famous_fish_fossil_takes_final_bow_in_Philadelphia.html">arms and paws or hands</a>?<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgdQxVLalVON3rJyGLfLcJaZ7Vcc4zZoCDkDSzH-St0ZpIaqILRT6hCXrPIEMrvtro1DCT9oB5sz8q_n1v1RdYhJX3zH5vuYfIjvs-AjtDwmkDAyGY7XRnN0b3YE8uMMGLt9ReqtqsLDw/s1600/tiktaalik+features.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgdQxVLalVON3rJyGLfLcJaZ7Vcc4zZoCDkDSzH-St0ZpIaqILRT6hCXrPIEMrvtro1DCT9oB5sz8q_n1v1RdYhJX3zH5vuYfIjvs-AjtDwmkDAyGY7XRnN0b3YE8uMMGLt9ReqtqsLDw/s320/tiktaalik+features.png" width="150" /></a></div>
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Fish hands diagram from <a href="http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/01/darwinists_obsession_with_tikt004761.html">here</a>.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjMiMVmxUC2e4vhePUWDwncCTTkhvxnbz9MCg_4_QTPwzO4ipgOQU-wxKausDrH7EsEEKLQX7iB13tXsx7tcyymP1uJc68V1u-6qpteqr0DPoNG4k7xtrxKyaS_NYr44Ky4lJjfhVIeew/s1600/fish+hands.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="198" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjMiMVmxUC2e4vhePUWDwncCTTkhvxnbz9MCg_4_QTPwzO4ipgOQU-wxKausDrH7EsEEKLQX7iB13tXsx7tcyymP1uJc68V1u-6qpteqr0DPoNG4k7xtrxKyaS_NYr44Ky4lJjfhVIeew/s320/fish+hands.jpg" width="320" /></a></div>
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<a href="http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/about/ucmpnews/09_05/tiktaalik09_05.php">Tiktaalik wrist and hand</a><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxfH_f2CVtDkW_TJrRyN2kQAkcBsOqw104Zpvj2Gtz_RLURDvdPFkgqJFvW6-HTFvRrJigtLkst4fEmTNID_dFLzQi9Nxpq8XJNs0wu38mwrAtY6PLjrHh2na9oRB5eji-_7-E6HmM9w/s1600/tiktaalik4+wrist+and+hand.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxfH_f2CVtDkW_TJrRyN2kQAkcBsOqw104Zpvj2Gtz_RLURDvdPFkgqJFvW6-HTFvRrJigtLkst4fEmTNID_dFLzQi9Nxpq8XJNs0wu38mwrAtY6PLjrHh2na9oRB5eji-_7-E6HmM9w/s1600/tiktaalik4+wrist+and+hand.jpg" /></a></div>
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Do these artist's renderings really show the details of the fossil? Or are they merely what the paleontologist and artist want to be there?<br />
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<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/02/14/i-cried-when-i-saw-a-christian-woman-destroy-all-of-paleontology-in-this-shocking-three-minute-video/">Fossil debunking video</a>.<br />
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Under the title “Dinosaur Hoax,” this unnamed young debunker of evolution triumphantly proves in a three-minute video that so-called dinosaur fossils are no more significant than random pieces of smashed-up plaster. You can spackle the bits back together any way you choose, she says; therefore, dinosaurs are a fabrication.</blockquote>
This woman almost has a point. The following images are from <a href="http://www.georgialifetraces.com/tag/paleontology/">Georgia Life Traces</a>. and have been shrunk (but will be somewhat larger if you click on them). Follow the link to see them full size. The first image is captioned, "<i>A rare piece of dinosaur bone that actually looks like a bone..</i>." while the next one is, <i>"You probably spotted the big chunk right away, but how about the smaller ones that tend to blend in with the non-dinosaur-bone rocks around them?</i>" and the third one is of a negative cast of a dinosaur track. For this latter, I can kind of see it, if I squint right.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgsT_ji4XoIkBIH3wE_OSgnZHQgH_IGIvociMYZ3ut4SLizEo8DXWeuU10aGuUtDjF2g6fAluXeay9vXyX-bnldX6lkvAZshmz7agZI2v1Ld_eo8exet3WagrchJlo2CzjSgCei4OHVKg/s1600/dinosaur+mess.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgsT_ji4XoIkBIH3wE_OSgnZHQgH_IGIvociMYZ3ut4SLizEo8DXWeuU10aGuUtDjF2g6fAluXeay9vXyX-bnldX6lkvAZshmz7agZI2v1Ld_eo8exet3WagrchJlo2CzjSgCei4OHVKg/s320/dinosaur+mess.png" width="115" /></a></div>
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How much of paleontology is based on faith? How much, as the speaker on the video asks, is based on the millions of dollars the paleontologists receive*?<br />
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I visited Drumheller, Alberta (<a href="http://tyrrellmuseum.com/">link to their museum</a>) almost twenty years ago. A paleontology/tourism group was offering to take people into the hills to look for dinosaur fossils. I joined them, had a great time but found nothing in the ground. We did pass a huge claw that the guide told us was aT-rex foot-claw fossil. The mineral that had replaced the bone was iron and the guide told us such fossils were so delicate that there was no point in carrying it away - it would crumble at the touch. This is nearly the sum total of my personal experience with fossils. Wait. I also have spent time at <a href="https://www.ontarioparks.com/park/craigleith">Craig Leith Provincial Park</a>. There are many fossils from 400+ million years ago there.<br />
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So I am certain that fossils are real, which puts me ahead of the woman in the video.<br />
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But are those tiny details correct?<br />
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After several fruitless minutes, I have given up on trying to find a long video of a glass-walled beehive. I wanted to demonstrate the 'expert's eye'. At university I was required to spend something like ten hours studying such a bee hive. For the first half hour I only saw a squirming mess. In the second half hour I saw one waggle dance (the dance bees use to communicate where a pollen source is). In the second hour, I saw ten waggle dances and in the following hours I saw them every time I looked. We upper year students would sometimes call a freshman student over and ask them to point out a waggle dance. They saw none. Then we would point out the dances one after another that they had missed entirely.<br />
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In my home district of Muskoka, there are many beautiful lakes and it is the perfect distance from Toronto so many wealthy families from Toronto and points south have cottages there. I grew up on those lakes and for many summers as a high school and university student, I worked as a carpenter's assistant on the lakes. I remember being out one summer day with another university student, this one from a drier part of Ontario. He asked me about a recurring whine or high pitched hum we heard through the day. Without needing to think about it, I told him that was the hydraulics of a boat's Inboard/Outboard motor adjusting the trim. This was natural and obvious to me and completely new to him.<br />
<br />
I do take the pronouncements of paleontologists on faith to an extent. I have difficulty seeing the various bones described in Tiktaalik's neck and fin. And yet, the people who criticize their claims usually haven't spent time with that specific fossil nor can claim to have spent enough time studying fossils in general to have an 'expert's eye'.<br />
A good example of this is mathematician <a href="http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx_is_a_fake">Fred Hoyle's description of archaeopteryx as a fak</a>e. He had no background in paleontology and appears to have misidentified modelling rubber as a suspicious chemical that pointed to fraud. The best counter argument for his claim is that at this time, a total of nine archaeopteryx fossils have been found, some with even better feather impressions than the one he examined. There is more at the link.<br />
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* The question of whether the speaker on the video is sincere or satirical is still open. If anyone cares, paleontologists do not make millions of dollars, ever.Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-64071257277607027102017-02-19T16:07:00.003+09:002017-02-19T16:07:51.319+09:00How much of our genome is functional?<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/02/13/is-the-genome-100-functional/">This video explains why most of our genome must be non-functional</a>.<br />
Let's see if I can summarise it.<br />
If most of our genome is functional and even a tiny number of mutations occur and some of those are deleterious, then we must have many offspring to maintain a population.<br />
<br />
If 100% of our genome is functional and necessary (the two words seem to be equivalent in this situation) and there is a mutation, it is around even odds (I am paraphrasing and simplifying) that it will be neutral or bad. If it is bad, the offspring is likely to die. So much so that a couple would need to have many children - hundreds- so that two would make it to reproduce to create the next generation and maintain a stable population.<br />
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If the genome is less than 10% functional, most or all mutations will be neutral - changing a non-functional section means there is likely no change to the organism. Parents in this scenario need to have around 2.1 offspring who reach adulthood to maintain a stable population.Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-58470095846315549872017-02-12T14:34:00.000+09:002017-02-12T14:34:01.925+09:00A whole mess of Flood-splaining<div class="qtext_para" style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span style="background-color: white;">I have to start by pointing out the tortured grammar of this question on Quora.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">"<b>Surely the story of Noah's Ark is possibly the most ludicrous story in history?</b></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;"><i>If thought about logically the idea that a man built a ship to house hundreds of thousands of species is clearly impossible?</i>"</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Why do I have to point this out? Because <a href="https://www.quora.com/Surely-the-story-of-Noahs-Ark-is-possibly-the-most-ludicrous-story-in-history/answer/Mark-Hunter-94?srid=noFQ">the response from Mark Hunter</a> doesn't really fit as an answer. The question has question marks but isn't obviously a question - perhaps it is form of trolling - and the response immediately jumps into Bible quotes and scientific claims with no scaffolding of explanation. The question is not good but the answer feels as if someone were to ask me, "Where is Bracebridge, Canada?" and I simply gave that person a map. Bracebridge might be on it, depending on the sale and whim of the cartographer but it's a small town in a big country.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">For this reason, it is difficult to attack a theme in Hunter's argument. There aren't many obvious themes.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">I'll try to share my problems with it.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">" a<i>go there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water</i>" - I think this is Day one of creation and the claim seems to be that the universe is water and Earth sticks out of it the the heavens are above it. Again Hunter does not explain the relevance of this quote so in my first reading I thought it was an attack on the Noah's Flood story. After all, we know the universe is not entirely water, if the Earth sticks out of the water as described then the Earth is flat and Heaven being above Earth doesn't work for a round Earth nor in a time of space exploration.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">hunter next offers a quote on the materials and construction of the Ark. It starts, "<i>Make for yourself an ark from resinous wood</i>." He follows this quote up with a discussion of naval architecture which includes:</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">"<i>same timber particularly favored for shipbuilding by the Phoenicians and by Alexander the Great</i>"</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">The problem is, although Hunter's quote uses the word 'resinous', other translations of the Bible use 'cypress'* and 'gopherwood'. At <span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="biblegateway.com" href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6%3A14-16" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("//qsf.ec.quoracdn.net/-3-images.new_grid.external_link.svg-26-aef78ead48f1f1e2.svg"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 6:14-16 - New International Version</a></span> the asterisk on cypress states, "<i>The meaning of the Hebrew for this word is uncertain</i>." And Gopherwood is the Bible's version of Star Trek's Dilithium Crystals - it sounds specific but means nothing. This clearly means that we can’t make such a statement about other maritime builders or materials.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">The following is not a comment on the Ark but on watertight construction. Hunter quotes "<i>You should put the entrance of the ark in its side... </i>". This is a terrible idea if you want watertight seals. You don't make a door that will be even partially underwater.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Included in his naval architecture points is this:</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">"<i>only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats</i>" - this suggests to me that I am putting more effort critiquing the argument than he was in making it. It doesn't belong in a architecture list and also there are 1,200 species of bats alone so his numbers don't make sense. Further, it is irrelevant because he needs to look at all species of animal alive and extinct.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">In his list of, I don't know, animal facts? He writes:</span></div>
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<i style="background-color: white;">“10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">There are a few birds who could fly for a year but there are a lot that cannot and also cannot land on water and take off again. I don't know of any bird that could live unsheltered through 40 days of rain falling around a meter per hour. They couldn't fly through it and a meter per hour of rainfall would break their wings and necks. There is no reason to imagine that chameleons could live a year in the water. Amphibians? Forget it. The water would be too salty.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">"<b>Where Did the Floodwaters Go?</b></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;"><i>Evidently they are right here on earth. Today there is about 1.4 billion cu km (326 million cu mi) of water on the earth. It covers more than 70 percent of the globe’s surface. The average depth of the oceans is 4 km (2.5 mi); average elevation of the land is only 0.8 km (0.5 mi) above sea level. If the earth’s surface was smoothed out, it would all be covered with water to a depth of 2,400 m (8,000 ft)</i>"</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">All this seems to require massive earthquakes. Hunter's needs such Earthquakes to flatten and flood the world. This also suggests that more Earthquakes will be needed after a year to make the planet lumpy again and drain some of the lands. Such earthquakes would mostly flatten but not dig trenches or quickly raise tall mountains. This reads like a non-geologist hoping that the magic of the word ‘earthquake’ will fix all credibility problems.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">This next point might be the craziest:</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;"><i>"a frozen mammoth was uncovered in Siberia in 1901. After thousands of years, vegetation was still in its mouth. Some see in this, as well as in such other things as marine fossils found on high mountains, deserts, convincing evidence of a sudden, catastrophic global flood</i>"</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">He thinks something frozen would be evidence of the globes covered in liquid water. If the water is liquid, things won't freeze.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">To finish things off:</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">"<i>floodgates of the heavens were opened</i>." - again, he seems to think the universe is full of water. That might be reasonable for person a few thousand years ago ignorant of the water cycle, but it has to be seen as crazy now, right? right?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Hunter goes on with a list of flood myths around the world. The thing is, I've read the Korean one mentioned in such lists and it describes a flood on a mountain rather than a large one. We might as well look at myths around the world that claim their tribe's founder was born of an animal. In Korea, Dang-gun was born of a god and a Bear who lived in a cave for a year to become human ( <span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="wikipedia.org" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangun" rel="noopener" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("//qsf.ec.quoracdn.net/-3-images.new_grid.external_link.svg-26-aef78ead48f1f1e2.svg"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Dangun - Wikipedia</a></span> ). Around the world, similar myths are offered. All are ridiculous.</span></div>
Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-55200730148057873342017-02-08T10:58:00.000+09:002017-02-08T10:58:48.118+09:00The evolution of language<div class="tr_bq">
Via <a href="https://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2017/02/07/creationist-wisdom-748-the-linguist/">The Sensuous Curmudgeon</a>, I read a <a href="http://kdminer.com/news/2017/feb/07/different-take-theory-evolution/">letter to the editor </a>that was typically terrible but also a good analogy for other arguments against the theory of evolution.</div>
<blockquote>
I began the study of linguistics in the autumn of 1968.<br />After nearly 50 years I can tell you, I still love linguistics. One day as an adult I read an article by a linguist who proposed a theory I had never considered. He suggested if Darwin were true, then language must have evolved from a grunt and a groan into the extraordinarily complex system of syntax, grammar and vocabulary which we speak today.<br />And if that were true, he continued, logically there must be evidence that somewhere, at sometime, in some place there once was a primitive language. After 50 years in linguistics I can tell you, for certain, there is no such evidence.</blockquote>
First, the claim it is a metaphor for.<a href="http://creationtoday.org/are-there-simple-life-forms/"> One thing this article at CreationToday gets right</a> is that there are no simple life forms today.<br />
<blockquote>
Any living organism, even a single-celled amoeba, is more complex than the space shuttle!...Most biology textbooks these days teach that all life-forms evolved from “simple, single-celled life-forms.”<br />There are several things to consider here:<br />There are no “simple life-forms.” If it is alive—it is extremely complex.<br />Many single-celled creatures have been observed for thousands of generations with no significant change.<br />Single-celled creatures still exist and reproduce. Why aren’t any of them evolving?<br />There are no examples living or fossilized of two-, three-, or four-celled creatures.<br />After one-celled creatures, the “simplest” animals have about one hundred cells. How did the single-celled creatures become multi-celled? Be sure to ask for specific evidence, not just theories.</blockquote>
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Alright, time to look at the letter to the editor and the claim that "[T]here must be evidence that somewhere, at sometime, in some place there once was a primitive language."<br />
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Why does the letter writer think that? Do the words from his mouth solidify and exist without human intervention for more than a few seconds? If you are curious about the 'few seconds' bit, I will do him the favour of imagining he speaks in an echo chamber and the words do carry and bounce for some time. But not a minute. Not an hour.<br />
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If there was a primitive language, if evolutionists and linguists were right, what does he think we would find? Here are some<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_languages_of_the_Americas#Unattested_languages"> 'Unattested languages' from North American native peoples</a> -"<span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><i>Several languages are only known by mention in historical documents or from only a few names or words. It cannot be determined that these languages actually existed or that the few recorded words are actually of known or unknown languages.</i>"</span><br />
<ul style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; list-style-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20width%3D%225%22%20height%3D%2213%22%3E%0A%3Ccircle%20cx%3D%222.5%22%20cy%3D%229.5%22%20r%3D%222.5%22%20fill%3D%22%2300528c%22%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E%0A"); margin: 0px 0px 0px 1.6em; padding: 0px;">
<li style="break-inside: avoid-column; margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a class="mw-redirect" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ais_language" style="background: none; color: #0b0080; text-decoration: none;" title="Ais language">Ais</a></li>
<li style="break-inside: avoid-column; margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a class="mw-redirect" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akokisa_language" style="background: none; color: #0b0080; text-decoration: none;" title="Akokisa language">Akokisa</a></li>
<li style="break-inside: avoid-column; margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aranama_language" style="background: none; color: #0b0080; text-decoration: none;" title="Aranama language">Aranama</a></li>
<li style="break-inside: avoid-column; margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a class="mw-redirect" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausaima_language" style="background: none; color: #0b0080; text-decoration: none;" title="Ausaima language">Ausaima</a></li>
<li style="break-inside: avoid-column; margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a class="mw-redirect" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoyel_language" style="background: none; color: #0b0080; text-decoration: none;" title="Avoyel language">Avoyel</a></li>
<li style="break-inside: avoid-column; margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a class="mw-redirect" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayogoula_language" style="background: none; color: #0b0080; text-decoration: none;" title="Bayogoula language">Bayogoula</a> - There are 23 more at the link.</li>
</ul>
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The key phrase for me is "cannot be determined that these languages actually existed". These names for possible languages can only be a few hundred years old as the words were recorded - possibly in error - by Europeans.<br />
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There is no reason to expect any evidence for ancient languages.<br />
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Alright. On to the Creation Today article and these statements and questions:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
1 There are no “simple life-forms.” If it is alive—it is extremely complex.<br />2 Many single-celled creatures have been observed for thousands of generations with no significant change.<br />3 Single-celled creatures still exist and reproduce. Why aren’t any of them evolving?<br />4 There are no examples living or fossilized of two-, three-, or four-celled creatures.<br />After one-celled creatures, the “simplest” animals have about one hundred cells.</blockquote>
4 <i>There are no examples living of fossilized of two-, three-, or four-celled creatures</i>. I don't know if this is true. Let's accept that it is. For now. There are also no examples of fossilized passenger pigeons. Fossils are formed when an object is surrounded by a material, typically silt or mud. With time, the object degrades and disappears and other material fills in the gap. This is obvious when looking at fossils of large dinosaur bones. But a dinosaur bone is much larger than a speck of silt. A creature of less than ten cells size is not much bigger than the silt surrounding it. Normally, the resolution is too poor to see an object that size. For another analogy,<a href="http://visions-of-earth.com/satellite-image-of-copacabana-beach-rio-de-janeiro/"> look at the beach in this satellite photo</a>. Point out anything that you 100% certain is a human being. I can see the beach umbrellas and spots that might be anything. The satellite cannot zoom in sufficiently to see humans. And the silt is usually too coarse to show details of microscopic life.<br />
Regarding the next point, the number of cells in the "simplest" animals. When we look at sponges, which can be quite large, were are looking at millions of cells but they are nearly identical in shape. If you were to break up a sponge and separate it into individual cells, it will reform into a new sponge. It does not have blood or organs; it is simply a large group of single cells working together. <a href="http://shapeoflife.org/video/sponges-time-lapse-sponge-cells-recombining">See here for some details</a>. It has many cells but they are not differentiated cells.<br />
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3 <i>Single-celled creatures still exist and reproduce. Why aren't any of them evolving?</i> The article writer imagines that diseases are not evolving. S/he needs penicillin the next time s/he is sick. Elsewhere I compared canoes to aircraft carriers. Canoes are like single-celled creatures and carriers are more complex. Both exist. An aircraft carrier, whatever other cool things it can do, cannot travel through Algonquin Park. Canoes are still canoes but are also very different from their origins.<br />
<br />
2 <i>Many single-celled creatures have been observed for thousands of generations with no significant change.</i> Many, but I note not all. What is a 'significant change'? Bacteria are now capable of digesting nylon. The Long-Term Experiment has run for around twenty or thirty years and the E coli bacteria there can now digest citrate, something that no other E coli bacteria can do.<br />
<br />
And now the reason I have done this in reverse order: 1 <i>There are no “simple life-forms.” If it is alive—it is extremely complex.</i><br />
I think analogies fail at this level. We don't know how life began. There is no reason to expect evidence of the first life forms - see the first several paragraphs of this post. Anything alive today that we see and study or experience must be able to live in modern conditions.<br />
<br />
One possibility for the first cell was that it formed in a microscopic gap in porous rock near a volcanic vent. It would not have needed much as it was both constrained by the space it lived in and was supplied with diffusing nutrients by the rock around it. There is no evidence to support or disprove this idea so it cannot be a theory, only a hypothesis. The point is, we don't expect evidence and there are workarounds for most objections.<br />
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Why do evolution proponents continue to claim there was a Universal Common Ancestor? Because of shared similarities across all domains of life that are best explained by one.Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-36741950422358558052017-02-08T09:34:00.001+09:002017-02-08T09:34:28.512+09:00Don't say Darwin when you mean Evolution<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Don't say Darwin unless you mean it. Don't say theory when you mean historical fact. And don't say you believe in evolution, when you mean you accept it on the basis of the evidence.</blockquote>
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<a href="http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2017/02/even-on-his-birthday-dont-say-darwin-unless-you-mean-it.html">Paul Braterman explains why here</a>.<br />
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Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-91762726558647153662016-12-16T13:31:00.001+09:002016-12-16T13:32:49.275+09:00It's nearly Kitzmas!<div class="ans_page_question_header" style="border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(226, 226, 226); color: #333333; margin-bottom: 32px; padding-bottom: 8px;">
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<span class="question_text"><span class="rendered_qtext" style="font-weight: normal; tab-size: 2em;"><span style="font-family: "georgia" , "times new roman" , serif; font-size: small;">I answered a question on quora ( <a href="https://www.quora.com/If-evolutionists-get-creationists-from-gibberish-like-cdesign-proponentsists-how-can-we-trust-them-to-use-scientific-evidence-reasonably/answer/Brian-Dean-9">here</a> ) and the person who posted the question later admitted to be trolling. I liked my answer and wanted to keep it handy.</span></span></span><a action_mousedown="QuestionLinkClickthrough" class="question_link" href="https://www.quora.com/If-evolutionists-get-creationists-from-gibberish-like-cdesign-proponentsists-how-can-we-trust-them-to-use-scientific-evidence-reasonably" id="__w2_XIZQ3h4_link" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #333333; display: block; letter-spacing: -1px; line-height: 1.25; text-decoration: none;"><span class="question_text"><span class="rendered_qtext" style="font-weight: normal; tab-size: 2em;"><span style="font-family: "georgia" , "times new roman" , serif; font-size: small;"><br /></span></span></span></a><br />
<a action_mousedown="QuestionLinkClickthrough" class="question_link" href="https://www.quora.com/If-evolutionists-get-creationists-from-gibberish-like-cdesign-proponentsists-how-can-we-trust-them-to-use-scientific-evidence-reasonably" id="__w2_XIZQ3h4_link" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #333333; display: block; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 28px; letter-spacing: -1px; line-height: 1.25; text-decoration: none;"><span class="question_text"><span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;">If evolutionists get "creationists" from gibberish like "cdesign proponentsists", how can we trust them to use scientific evidence reasonably?</span></span></a></div>
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<span class="feed_item_answer_user" style="display: block; line-height: 1.2em; margin-bottom: 2px;"><span id="WlTkZa"><span id="qWabbP"><span id="iSGpoP"><span id="__w2_VHBBCtK_link"><a action_mousedown="UserLinkClickthrough" class="user" href="https://www.quora.com/profile/Brian-Dean-9" id="__w2_VHBBCtK_name_link" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; bottom: 0px; color: #333333; font-weight: bold; line-height: 1.2em; position: relative; right: 0px; text-decoration: none;">Brian Dean</a></span></span><span class="IdentitySig ActorNameSig IdentityNameSig" id="__w2_HBgQU9h_bio" style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4;">, <span id="__w2_HBgQU9h_link"><span class="IdentitySig ActorNameSig IdentityNameSig" id="__w2_HBgQU9h_sig" style="line-height: 1.4;"><span class="truncated_para_breaks expanded_q_text" id="__w2_AFQGoxu_text_snip" style="tab-size: 2em; user-select: auto;"><span id="__w2_AFQGoxu_text_snip_content" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;">evolution proponent who reads a lot</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
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<span id="YXJJXL"><a action_mousedown="AnswerPermalinkClickthrough" class="answer_permalink" href="https://www.quora.com/If-evolutionists-get-creationists-from-gibberish-like-cdesign-proponentsists-how-can-we-trust-them-to-use-scientific-evidence-reasonably/answer/Brian-Dean-9" id="__w2_KFatLpJ_link" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; bottom: 0px; color: #999999; position: relative; right: 0px; text-decoration: none;">Written 28m ago</a></span></div>
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Answering: <b>“If evolutionists get "creationists" from gibberish like "cdesign proponentsists", how can we trust them to use scientific evidence reasonably?”</b></div>
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For reference, the question is based on the Dover ID Trial of 2005 - the eleventh anniversary of the end of that trial is in four days. <b>Merry Kitzmas</b>, everyone!</div>
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At the heart of the trial was an Intelligent Design textbook, Of Pandas and People. The earliest versions of this book used the word “creationist” and later versions used the words “design proponent”. Sometime in 1987, US courts ruled that teaching creationism was a form of promoting religion and so could not be told. Here is the relevant portion of the book from before that trial (images of text from <span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="ncse.com" href="https://ncse.com/book/export/html/11798" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Kitzmiller v. Dover: Intelligent Design on Trial</a></span>):</div>
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1983:</div>
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Early 1987:</div>
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Soon after that trial:</div>
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<canvas class="qtext_image_placeholder landscape qtext_image zoomable_in zoomable_in_feed" data-src="data:image/JPEG;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAIBAQEBAQIBAQECAgICAgQDAgICAgUEBAMEBgUGBgYFBgYGBwkIBgcJBwYGCAsICQoKCgoKBggLDAsKDAkKCgr/2wBDAQICAgICAgUDAwUKBwYHCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgr/wAARCAACAAoDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAFgABAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYJ/8QAIBAAAQMCBwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECIQMEEhQiMUNxsf/EABQBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD/xAAUEQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwDaa31OTFMrv0UtmiZOlHG3wAD/2Q==" height="137.909385113" style="animation-duration: 0.001s; animation-name: insQ_100; cursor: -webkit-zoom-in; display: block; max-width: 100%; position: relative; vertical-align: baseline; visibility: hidden;" width="572.0"></canvas><img class="landscape qtext_image zoomable_in zoomable_in_feed lazy_loaded lazy_loading" master_h="149" master_src="https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-dcf244ef8cb848505950d90be2a726ba-c?convert_to_webp=true" master_w="618" src="https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d971f638d675a162380401931eeb9bc5-c?convert_to_webp=true" style="animation-duration: 0.001s; animation-name: insQ_101; border-radius: 3px; border: 0px; cursor: -webkit-zoom-in; display: block; left: 0px; max-width: 100%; opacity: 1; position: absolute; top: 0px; transition: opacity 0.5s linear;" /></div>
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Later versions had the error fixed and read, “…….former is correct, design proponents accept the latter view…”</div>
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In direct response (but not exactly answer)to the question, the conclusion from the evidence seems warranted. Getting “creationists” from “cdesign proponentists” is indeed silly. But seeing that the word used in earlier copies was ‘creationist’, the word used in recent copies was ‘design proponent’ and “cdesign proponentists” was used in between really supports the conclusion that the “c” and the “ists” were from “creationists”.</div>
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These transcripts from the trial ( <span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">July 14 Hearing: Jon A. Buell</a></span> )show the publisher of the book, Jon Buell, explaining that the company is not Christian based company. However, the plaintiff lawyers then shared the IRS charitable tax exemption. From the transcript:</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell688" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Q</a></span> And if you go about 60 percent down the page, there's an entry for Statement of Organization's Primary Exempt Purpose.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell689" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">A</a></span> Um-hum, um-hum.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell690" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Q</a></span> And the explanation that the Foundation provides to the IRS is that its primary exempt purpose is promoting and publishing textbooks presenting a Christian perspective, isn't that right?</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell691" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">A</a></span> That's what it says.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell692" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Q</a></span> Okay. And Pandas is one of those publications, isn't it?</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell693" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">A</a></span> No, Pandas doesn't fit this because this is not an accurate statement.</div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell694" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Q</a></span> Okay. This --</div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell695" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">A</a></span> This statement was -- we had a new CP A do our 990 and audit we had never used before.</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
and</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(221, 221, 221); color: #666666; margin: 0px; padding-left: 1em;">
<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell700" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Q</a></span> Now, your counsel brought up your articles of incorporation and I'd like to show those to you as well.</div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
These are the articles of incorporation that the Foundation filed with the state of Texas.</div>
<div class="qtext_para" style="margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0px;">
<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell702" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">THE COURT</a></span>: I'm not sure that was recognized as a question.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell703" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">THE WITNESS</a></span>: Oh, I'm sorry, yes, I'm sorry.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell704" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">THE COURT</a></span>: Let's keep this moving.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell705" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">MR. ROTHSCHILD</a></span>: Sorry, Your Honor.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell706" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">BY MR. ROTHSCHILD</a></span>:</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell707" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Q</a></span> And on the second page of the document there's a signature space with your signature on it?</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell708" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">A</a></span> On the second page of the document? Yes, uh-huh, I see it.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell709" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Q</a></span> If you go to the third page of the document, it identifies the purposes for the -- for which the corporation was formed?</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell710" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">A</a></span> Right.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell711" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Q</a></span> And what it states is that the primary purpose is both religious and educational, and then it talks about making known the Christian gospel and understanding of the Bible?</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell712" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">A</a></span> Yes.</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell713" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Q</a></span> Is it your testimony that that's also an inaccurate submission?</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell714" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">A</a></span> It was boilerplate that the attorney that was helping us become established used. I felt that it was inappropriate. He said we need to be clear in identifying yourself as having a genuine nonprofit purpose, and so the language that originated with me is the phrase, "but is not limited to."</div>
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<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-qt-tooltip="talkorigins.org" href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/buell2.html#buell716" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E"); background-origin: initial; background-position: right 0.3em; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: 10.5px; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">A</a></span> Yes, most of it, I think nearly all of it, possibly all of it.</div>
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That Christian publishers chose to publish the book does not make it creationist but that they lied - and they either lied about being Christian for tax reasons or they lied when they claimed not to be Christians -must show they were hiding something. On its own, maybe the publisher was only guilty of tax fraud (and incorporation statement fraud, if that is a thing), but when added to the changes in the book, it appears they were hiding its creationist origins.</div>
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To the person who posted the question, I have two of my own. How can you trust the authors and publishers of the book considering their dishonesty? And how is the ‘cdesign proponentists” = ‘creationists” conclusion unreasonable?</div>
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<span class="photo_tooltip comment_image" id="__w2_D9R83dT_link" style="left: 0px; position: absolute; top: 8px;"><img alt="Anonymous" class="profile_photo_img comment_image" height="25" src="https://qsf.ec.quoracdn.net/-3-images.new_grid.profile_pic_anon_small.png867c1f9ac8eed1ed.png" style="animation-duration: 0.001s; animation-name: insQ_101; border-radius: 50%; border: 0px; left: 0px; position: static; top: 0px;" width="25" /></span><br />
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<span id="wvyWxR"><span class="anon_user" style="font-weight: bold; unicode-bidi: bidi-override;">Anonymous</span></span></div>
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<span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;">It’s gibberish. You are grasping at straws. This proves nothing. Idiotic tyrants taking up court time, and grasping at straws. The government can claim anything and persecute anyone with nonsense evidence. It is ridiculous.</span></div>
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<span id="nIDzLz"><span id="__w2_NwF3thX_link"><a action_mousedown="UserLinkClickthrough" class="user" href="https://www.quora.com/profile/Brian-Dean-9" id="__w2_NwF3thX_name_link" style="background: transparent; color: #333333; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none; unicode-bidi: bidi-override;">Brian Dean</a></span></span></div>
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<span class="inline_editor_value" style="display: block; font-family: "helvetica neue" , "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; margin-right: 4px; margin-top: 0px;"><span id="__w2_E0fgPXs_text_snip_content" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;"></span></span></span><br />
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<span class="inline_editor_value" style="display: block; font-family: "helvetica neue" , "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; margin-right: 4px; margin-top: 0px;"><span id="__w2_E0fgPXs_text_snip_content" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;">Mr Anonymous, evidence is gibberish? Do you dispute that earlier editions of the book used the word, “creationist”? Do you dispute that later versions used, “design proponent?” How can you dispute that?</span></span></span></div>
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<span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;">Guy hit the wrong keys on the typewriter. Happens all the time, and he was in a hurry. He meant to say creationist but you can’t prove what he was trying to change it to. Just trying to pile on innocent people. Kitzmiller case gives Atheists a bad name, and it’s right.</span></div>
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<span class="photo_tooltip comment_image author_comment_image" id="__w2_hIqZqll_link" style="left: 0px; position: absolute; top: 8px;"><a href="https://www.quora.com/profile/Brian-Dean-9" id="__w2_U5xMHc0_link" style="background: transparent; color: #2b6dad; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Brian Dean" class="profile_photo_img comment_image author_comment_image" height="25" src="https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-thumb-19546641-25-oGJorTsTeDs5t9rk04oCGWGS17ey7jsI.jpeg" style="animation-duration: 0.001s; animation-name: insQ_101; border-radius: 50%; border: 0px; left: 0px; position: static; top: 0px;" width="25" /></a></span><br />
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<span class="inline_editor_value" style="display: block; font-family: "helvetica neue" , "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; margin-right: 4px; margin-top: 0px;"><span id="__w2_nhZtgAW_full_text_content"><span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;"></span></span></span><br />
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<span class="inline_editor_value" style="display: block; font-family: "helvetica neue" , "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; margin-right: 4px; margin-top: 0px;"><span id="__w2_nhZtgAW_full_text_content"><span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;">I hit wrong keys all the time. I have even had my fingers shifted one key to the left to many words were gibberish. I’m sympathetic.</span></span></span></div>
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Wait, wait, wait. You wrote, “ He meant to say creationist…” I’ve already written that I am sympathetic to lapses or errors. I fully accept that you might have made a mistake. I just need to confirm this. Your original question was <b>“If evolutionists get ‘creationists” from gibberish like “cdesign proponenists…</b>” and now you are saying “he meant to write ‘creationist”. I accept that you could have made a mistake. Please clear this up for me. Because if you are did not make an error, then you would seem to be agreeing with me.</div>
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Earlier versions of the book had the word “creationist”. It is clear the ‘guy’ made a simple mistake while editing but did this guy, or other guys, accidentally type “creationist” in the earliest editions?</div>
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Please recall that there was not simply one edition in the trial. I am not certain which editions were used and displayed in the trial. But we know that in 1983, the book had the word, “creationist”. We know that in early 1987, the book had the words, “cdesign proponentists” and we know that later in 1987, the book had the words, “design proponent”. Did all the book prior to mid-1987 have clumsy fingered editors, who first accidentally typed “creationist” and then later accidentally typed “cdesign proponentists?”</div>
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<span class="inline_editor_value" style="display: block; font-family: "helvetica neue" , "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; margin-right: 4px; margin-top: 0px;"><span id="__w2_qSJwylN_full_text_content"><span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;"></span></span></span><br />
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<span class="inline_editor_value" style="display: block; font-family: "helvetica neue" , "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; margin-right: 4px; margin-top: 0px;"><span id="__w2_qSJwylN_full_text_content"><span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;">I also need to jump in regarding “atheists”. Many of the plaintiffs were Christians, they simply belonged to Christian groups that accept evolution. As does Dr Ken Miller, a lead witness for the plaintiffs.</span></span></span></div>
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Throughout the case, ID proponents earned themselves a bad name.</div>
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And also, you, just like ID proponents, are trying to have it both ways. <b>“ID isn’t religious.” </b>And <b>“if you attack ID, you are anti-religion.“ </b>If ID isn’t religious, isn’t a form of creationism, then attacking it cannot be an attack on religion and so can’t be (exclusively) blamed on atheists.</div>
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<span id="JbgCDW"><span class="anon_user" style="font-weight: bold; unicode-bidi: bidi-override;">Anonymous</span></span></div>
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<span class="rendered_qtext" style="tab-size: 2em;">Meh, I don’t care. I was trolling and lost interest. Thanks for playing along :)</span></div>
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Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-46856570874420221802016-07-26T10:22:00.000+09:002016-07-26T10:22:31.645+09:00A response to Tovrose regarding entropy<br />
<a href="http://www.tovrose.com/2016/07/06/either-evolution-true-2nd-law-thermodynamics-cant-true/">Tovrose feels that evolution and the second law of thermodynamics cannot both be true.</a> Below is a comment I left at that blog post.<br />
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<span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">You are wrong and I will try to explain why that is.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">The second law of thermodynamics describes a tendency. A tendency is not an effect that occurs 100% of the time. Although men tend to be taller than women, this is not always the case.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Let me attempt an example.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">When I was conceived I was much less than a gram in mass. That single cell had amazing potential. That single cell had potential but comparatively little complexity. When I was a university student, let's say 23 years old, my body was at its physical peak and probably my mind was too. My body and mind were both much more complex than that single cell. I massed around 65 kg or around 65,000 times more than when I was conceived.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">And yet the second law was not broken for this to occur. Although I personally became more complex, I was making the world around me more disordered. For those twenty-three years and nine months, I was radiating 37 degrees Celsius. although I massed 65 kg, I ate far more than that in my twenty-three plus years. Indeed, I ate more 65 kg in a single year for most of those years. I exhaled lots of CO2 and expelled other wastes.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">As this increase in complexity shows, the second law does not forbid such increases.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Another example: A block of stone has potential: it can be sculpted into remarkable shapes or it can be melted down with the ores used to make interesting things. In both these cases, the potential is not the same thing as complexity. Yet the tools needed to work the stone release energy and dust in disordered forms so even as complexity increases locally, so does disorder universally.
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">I have not proven that evolution occurs, only that the second law does not prove it cannot.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">You specifically mention mutations. Do note that duplication mutations have been observed, with changes to one of the copies adding new functions to the lifeform. As a practical matter, information and new functions are known to occur and the process is understood.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Again, I have not proven that evolution occurs, only that the second law is not a deal breaker.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Finally, you wrote ". You’ll be surprised, for example, how many people have accepted the myth that ‘science has shown there is no God.
Of course, evolution is the kingpin of modern atheism and world communism."</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">I have to add some sarcasm here: You’ll be surprised, for example, how many people have accepted the myth that acceptance of evolution = atheism.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">In the US and Canada -and probably other places - most evolution proponents are religious and most of those are Christian. The Catholic Church is entirely fine with evolution as is the Anglican Church. There is no THE Lutheran Church, but at least some sects of Lutherans accept evolution. The church I grew up in, The United Church of Canada, is fully accepting of evolution.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.6px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Intelligent Design proponents claim (I feel dishonestly) that their position is secular and I suppose that means that atheists could accept ID rather than evolution. Yes, most atheists are evolution proponents but most evolution proponents are Christian.</span>Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-52619262550004533932016-07-12T08:31:00.000+09:002016-07-12T08:31:04.607+09:00The odds of life beginning<a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-equation-tallies-odds-of-life-beginning1/">Sci Am has an article describing an equation measuring the odd of life beginning on a planet</a>. Considering there is only a sample size of one, I am sure there are a lot of variables with no values offered.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhln3YGS5-zqH-08Pd09Qevww-M_VLyxZ6Ntgmd0cGsE8s7HpusKX-zR2lLjC7DIU3_oWfw4w_4D4yS-d5Y0W0Qkb0BXZ0j44qy0bsyHZqoblxudhjDAm3TAG1GiMUnrn8tRbAtQbQN0Q/s1600/odds+of+life+beginning.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="235" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhln3YGS5-zqH-08Pd09Qevww-M_VLyxZ6Ntgmd0cGsE8s7HpusKX-zR2lLjC7DIU3_oWfw4w_4D4yS-d5Y0W0Qkb0BXZ0j44qy0bsyHZqoblxudhjDAm3TAG1GiMUnrn8tRbAtQbQN0Q/s320/odds+of+life+beginning.jpg" width="320" /></a></div>
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I am about to move house, so read the rest at the link.<br />
<br />Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-85378520302828146852016-07-09T19:43:00.001+09:002016-07-09T19:43:20.264+09:00I had some fun answering this Quora question on evolutionThis is not meant to be a serious response, but then the questions can't be said to be all that serious either.<br />
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<span class="quora-content-embed" data-name="What-do-you-say-to-someone-who-says-that-everything-that-Darwin-said-is-nonsense/answer/Brian-Dean-9">Read <a class="quora-content-link" data-embed="wkchvjf" data-height="250" data-id="24924448" data-key="a32c192f8dbdbc171e07ddb10802f1f8" data-type="answer" data-width="559" href="https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-say-to-someone-who-says-that-everything-that-Darwin-said-is-nonsense/answer/Brian-Dean-9" load-full-answer="False"></a><a href="https://www.quora.com/Brian-Dean-9">Brian Dean</a>'s <a href="https://www.blogger.com/What-do-you-say-to-someone-who-says-that-everything-that-Darwin-said-is-nonsense#ans24924448">answer</a> to <a href="https://www.blogger.com/What-do-you-say-to-someone-who-says-that-everything-that-Darwin-said-is-nonsense" ref="canonical"><span class="rendered_qtext"></span></a></span><br />
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<span class="quora-content-embed" data-name="What-do-you-say-to-someone-who-says-that-everything-that-Darwin-said-is-nonsense/answer/Brian-Dean-9"><a href="https://www.blogger.com/What-do-you-say-to-someone-who-says-that-everything-that-Darwin-said-is-nonsense" ref="canonical"><span class="rendered_qtext">What do you say to someone who says that everything that Darwin said is nonsense?</span></a></span></div>
<span class="quora-content-embed" data-name="What-do-you-say-to-someone-who-says-that-everything-that-Darwin-said-is-nonsense/answer/Brian-Dean-9"> on <a href="https://www.__nousername__.main.quora.com/">Quora</a></span><div>
<br /><span class="quora-content-embed" data-name="What-do-you-say-to-someone-who-says-that-everything-that-Darwin-said-is-nonsense/answer/Brian-Dean-9"><script src="https://www.quora.com/widgets/content" type="text/javascript"></script></span>
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<b style="font-weight: bold;">Top ten things to say to someone that says all that Darwin said is nonsense:</b></div>
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10 “Goodbye.”</div>
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9 “Quote or read two full continuous paragraphs that Darwin wrote.”</div>
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8 “Tell me three things that Darwin wrote about.”</div>
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7 “Ha, ha, ha, ha”</div>
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6 “Which is untrue or nonsense in the following three premises?</div>
<ol style="list-style: decimal; margin: 0px 2em 1em 0px; padding: 0px;">
<li style="left: 2em; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 0.7em; position: relative;">Offspring show variation and this variation is at least partially hereditary.</li>
<li style="left: 2em; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 0.7em; position: relative;">More offspring are born than can survive</li>
<li style="left: 2em; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 0.7em; position: relative;">Different characteristics will show different rates of reproductive success.”</li>
</ol>
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5 “Are you aware that there are many feathered dinosaurs (<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" data-tooltip="attached" href="http://news.softpedia.com/news/Top-10-Feathered-Dinosaurs-67566.shtml" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E") right 0.3em / 10.5px no-repeat; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Top 10 Feathered Dinosaurs</a></span>)?” <i>Don’t actually say the link - that’d be weird in conversation</i>.</div>
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4 “Are you aware of the fine grained transitional fossils between fish and amphibians (<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils#Fish_to_tetrapods" rel="noopener nofollow" style="background: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E") right 0.3em / 10.5px no-repeat; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">List of transitional fossils</a></span>)?” <i>Don’t actually say the link - that’d be weird in conversation</i>.</div>
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3 “Were you home schooled?”</div>
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2 “Here is The Origin of Species. It is not the most exciting writing but it is entirely readable for a layperson. (<span class="qlink_container"><a class="external_link" href="http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2009/2009-h/2009-h.htm" rel="noopener" style="background: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%20standalone%3D%22no%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20width%3D%2214px%22%20height%3D%2214px%22%20viewBox%3D%220%200%2014%2014%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20xmlns%3Asketch%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%2Fns%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C!--%20Generator%3A%20Sketch%203.5.2%20(25235)%20-%20http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bohemiancoding.com%2Fsketch%20--%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctitle%3Eexternal_link%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdesc%3ECreated%20with%20Sketch.%3C%2Fdesc%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cdefs%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22Page-1%22%20stroke%3D%22none%22%20stroke-width%3D%221%22%20fill%3D%22none%22%20fill-rule%3D%22evenodd%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSPage%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cg%20id%3D%22external_link%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSLayerGroup%22%20fill%3D%22%23ccc%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M10%2C8%20C9.447%2C8%209%2C8.448%209%2C9%20L9%2C12%20L2%2C12%20L2%2C5%20L5%2C5%20C5.553%2C5%206%2C4.552%206%2C4%20C6%2C3.448%205.553%2C3%205%2C3%20L1%2C3%20C0.447%2C3%200%2C3.448%200%2C4%20L0%2C13%20C0%2C13.552%200.447%2C14%201%2C14%20L10%2C14%20C10.553%2C14%2011%2C13.552%2011%2C13%20L11%2C9%20C11%2C8.448%2010.553%2C8%2010%2C8%20L10%2C8%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cpath%20d%3D%22M13%2C0%20L8%2C0%20C7.447%2C0%207%2C0.448%207%2C1%20C7%2C1.552%207.447%2C2%208%2C2%20L10.586%2C2%20L4.293%2C8.293%20C3.902%2C8.684%203.902%2C9.316%204.293%2C9.707%20C4.488%2C9.902%204.744%2C10%205%2C10%20C5.256%2C10%205.512%2C9.902%205.707%2C9.707%20L12%2C3.414%20L12%2C6%20C12%2C6.552%2012.447%2C7%2013%2C7%20C13.553%2C7%2014%2C6.552%2014%2C6%20L14%2C1%20C14%2C0.448%2013.553%2C0%2013%2C0%20L13%2C0%20Z%22%20id%3D%22Shape%22%20sketch%3Atype%3D%22MSShapeGroup%22%3E%3C%2Fpath%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fg%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E") right 0.3em / 10.5px no-repeat; color: #2b6dad; padding-right: 15px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">http://www.gutenberg.org<wbr></wbr>/files/2...</a></span>)”</div>
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1 “If Darwin bothers you, read the work of any of the thousands of scientists since then who have confirmed and expanded his theory into one of the best supported theories in all of science.”</div>
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Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-22841958753019288162016-07-05T08:44:00.001+09:002016-07-05T09:11:56.981+09:00Three types of creationist argumentsThese types of arguments might be common in many fields but creationist/evolutionist discussion is where I spend my leisure time so that's where I know they are.<br />
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<b>"Find a few pieces of evidence that fit your argument</b></div>
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<b>and ignore all the others."</b></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiNyeaydGi1-OnbR57T2Q-IgdTpDwXE8c3ssBcmOTDWuIjxagpMU2zCyubfEySGM5MlT29jA3KyHJOznxeLOyb8OeXn8TFnxIDUQrK4MCGDAZUEXjho6Eu6RdNZU9UqN7MzSVi_kc8JRg/s1600/CmihnSnUcAItvrb.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiNyeaydGi1-OnbR57T2Q-IgdTpDwXE8c3ssBcmOTDWuIjxagpMU2zCyubfEySGM5MlT29jA3KyHJOznxeLOyb8OeXn8TFnxIDUQrK4MCGDAZUEXjho6Eu6RdNZU9UqN7MzSVi_kc8JRg/s320/CmihnSnUcAItvrb.jpg" width="313" /></a></div>
I've seen this image many times. I saved the above from Twitter but when I searched for "the data how scientists see it how creationists see it", <a href="https://onsizzle.com/i/evolution-facebook-~twig-atheist-136457">this was the first result</a>. No idea who to properly attribute it to.<br />
The best example of this type of argument for me is <a href="http://creationevolutionbusan.blogspot.kr/2011/11/greenland-ice-and-icecores-lost.html">Carl Wielands's Glacier Girl article that shows how snow falls rapidly on the coast of Greenland so inland Greenland's ice sheets are young</a>. In doing so, he ignores - and does not offer locations -the fact that the two locations are hundreds of kilometers apart and in different climatic zones. He also ignores all the ways the ice core layer ages are confirmed - two layers=one year, volcanic ash deposits match historic eruptions, isotope ratios...<br />
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<b>"We can't trust the experts!"</b></div>
This argument definitely crosses borders. I was reminded of it on Twitter by arguments over Brexit.<br />
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<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gove?src=hash">#Gove</a>'s battle against the experts. Explained. <a href="https://t.co/QmBGNloenS">https://t.co/QmBGNloenS</a> <a href="https://t.co/oKIiZFaFmn">pic.twitter.com/oKIiZFaFmn</a></div>
— Christian Odendahl (@COdendahl) <a href="https://twitter.com/COdendahl/status/749136898917015553">July 2, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async="" charset="utf-8" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js"></script>
The link goes to: <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/michael-goves-guide-to-britains-greatest-enemy-the-experts/">Britain's greatest enemy, the experts</a><br />
In creationism circles, this argument often displays itself in strawmen arguments. but it also a common place to find lists of supposedly unanswerable questions.<br />
This claim is made about the eye in various forms (the claim is given in various forms, the different forms of eyes is usually ignored). From <a href="http://www.harunyahya.com/en/books/592/Darwinism-Refuted/chapter/51/Irreducible-Complexity">Harun Yunha</a><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
For an eye to be able to see, the 40 or so basic components which make it up need to be present at the same time and work together perfectly. The lens is only one of these. If all the other components, such as the cornea, iris, pupil, retina, and eye muscles, are all present and functioning properly, but just the eyelid is missing, then the eye will shortly incur serious damage and cease to carry out its function. In the same way, if all the subsystems exist but tear production ceases, then the eye will dry up and go blind within a few hours.<br />
The theory of evolution's claim of "reducibility" loses all meaning in the face of the complex structure of the eye. The reason is that, in order for the eye to function, all its parts need to be present at the same time. It is impossible, of course, for the mechanisms of natural selection and mutation to give rise to the eye's dozens of different subsystems when they can confer no advantage right up until the last stage.</blockquote>
An expert, even an interesed bystander, will see the problem. Fish, some amphibians and some reptiles don't have eyelids. Clearly the specific example given is one of poor research and eyes are not irreducibly complex.<br />
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I spent ten minutes looking for this argument in the form of a list of fifteen or so questions for students to ask their biology teachers. The question about eyes had, probably not 40 parts, but ten or so. It went something like, "5 Eyes need to be fully formed to work. a) When did the nerve to the eye form? b) When did the eyelids form? c) When did the cornea form?.... x)What did the animal with half formed eyes do?" Couldn't find it.<br />
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I guess the "Why are there still apes?" attempt at a stumper question fits here, too.<br />
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<b>We don't know, therefore Creationism</b></div>
<a href="https://www.algemeiner.com/2011/08/17/scientists-prove-again-that-life-is-the-result-of-intelligent-design/#">Or in this case, therefore Intelligent Design</a>:<br />
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...none of them have the slightest clue as to how it actually happened, and (B) The obvious and most significant conclusion that can be drawn from all their splendid work in the lab is that the only reasonable explanation for the emergence of life is Intelligent Design!</blockquote>
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Are there arguments that fall outside these categories?<br />
<br />Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-34354682024600935062016-07-03T06:54:00.001+09:002016-07-04T07:18:22.532+09:00Something for all those creationists to remember!Hey, you stupid creationists,<a href="https://medium.com/@SeanBlanda/the-other-side-is-not-dumb-2670c1294063#.9h1hw3tjj"> the 'Other Side' isn't dumb!</a><br />
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When will those frickin' idiots learn?<br />
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Alright, on the off chance you didn't follow the link, it goes to a general article describing 'the other' in any argument and so the lessons it offers are presumably just as applicable to evolutionists.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEht3KTNPjGTHhYCErt3wvV8wfbLOGa5Br0nQSMproQDToulotG2AGRjPWBeA5tIzW9WfxZFbsWHLJKww018Ei8LnXJSvz2cq9nq8o1-HpOlfr5li36e0nKWbeFvBVbyx_HfawOgDLnMsg/s1600/other+side+1-P4eh08ddGc_lP8ip0nMpUA.jpeg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="203" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEht3KTNPjGTHhYCErt3wvV8wfbLOGa5Br0nQSMproQDToulotG2AGRjPWBeA5tIzW9WfxZFbsWHLJKww018Ei8LnXJSvz2cq9nq8o1-HpOlfr5li36e0nKWbeFvBVbyx_HfawOgDLnMsg/s320/other+side+1-P4eh08ddGc_lP8ip0nMpUA.jpeg" width="320" /></a>*</div>
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As any debate club veteran knows, if you can’t make your opponent’s point for them, you don’t truly grasp the issue. We can bemoan political gridlock and a divisive media all we want. But we won’t truly progress as individuals until we make an honest effort to understand those that are not like us. And you won’t convince anyone to feel the way you do if you don’t respect their position and opinions.</blockquote>
I think this paragraph makes a big jump from "understand" to "respect". I try to understand various arguments for creationism and to respect the individual but I don't see that every argument automatically deserves respect. As a blogger who has deliberately focused on creationism's worst (but common) arguments, I see the ones displaying the least amount of research.<br />
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*Image is shrunk a little. More of <a href="http://www.tomgauld.com/">Tom Gauld's work can be found here</a>.<br />
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.Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-451551341866321031.post-51660374445554533302016-06-17T21:16:00.001+09:002016-06-17T21:16:36.022+09:00Darwin and particle physicsDarwin had little or nothing to do with particle physics but some of his conclusions inspired at least one physicist. From <a href="http://reciprocity-giving-something-back.blogspot.kr/2016/05/has-evolution-been-proven.html">Reciprocity Blog, Has Evolution been proven?</a><br />
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It's a little-known fact that the earliest objections to Darwin's work didn't come from the religious, it came from a different quarter entirely, and a surprising one at that: Physicists.<br /> <br />The big problem was that, since Newton, it was thought that the universe was just like a big clockwork machine. Pierre-Simon Laplace famously stated that, with Newton's work, all we needed to know was the position and velocity of every particle in the universe and we could predict with perfect accuracy any past or future state.<br />This is now known as Laplacian determinism. All the physicists of Darwin's day were Laplacian determinists. They couldn't countenance the idea that there were random elements at play in the universe. But what do we actually mean by random here?<br /> <br />Random, in the way that I employ it, and in the way that it arises in evolutionary theory, means 'statistically independent'. It does not mean, as some suppose 'uncaused'. It simply means that, of a range of possible outcomes, any one outcome is statistically as probable as any other outcome.<br />To give a concrete example of something random, we can look at the decay of a single atom. The moment of decay of, say, an atom of caesium, is entirely random. It can happen any time from the moment the atom first arises to the heat-death of the universe. There's absolutely no way to predict when it will decay. Each of those moments, and thus the time of decay, is statistically independent.<br />So, Darwin had introduced the random and the probabilistic, and the physicists weren't too happy about it. Ludwig Boltzmann, father of thermodynamics, cites Darwin as one of his major influences in the formulation of statistical mechanics, and describes him, having laid the groundwork that would ultimately result in quantum mechanics, as the greatest physicist of the 19th century.</blockquote>
By the way, the blogger feels that evolution has been proven, at least in a 'beyond a reasonable doubt' way.Surprises Aplentyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14178013380916292778noreply@blogger.com0