Showing posts with label how to argue.. Show all posts
Showing posts with label how to argue.. Show all posts

Sunday, 3 July 2016

Something for all those creationists to remember!

Hey, you stupid creationists, the 'Other Side' isn't dumb!

When will those frickin' idiots learn?

Alright, on the off chance you didn't follow the link, it goes to a general article describing 'the other' in any argument and so the lessons it offers are presumably just as applicable to evolutionists.
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As any debate club veteran knows, if you can’t make your opponent’s point for them, you don’t truly grasp the issue. We can bemoan political gridlock and a divisive media all we want. But we won’t truly progress as individuals until we make an honest effort to understand those that are not like us. And you won’t convince anyone to feel the way you do if you don’t respect their position and opinions.
I think this paragraph makes a big jump from "understand" to "respect".  I try to understand various arguments for creationism and to respect the individual but I don't see that every argument automatically deserves respect. As a blogger who has deliberately focused on creationism's worst (but common) arguments, I see the ones displaying the least amount of research.

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*Image is shrunk a little. More of Tom Gauld's work can be found here.

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Saturday, 25 April 2015

Your own opinions, not your own facts

UPDATE: Brean has deleted our comment thread.  I cannot say if this post is one-sided or biased but there is no longer an original record to refer back to.
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I followed the link Brean provided and we had a cordial discussion in the comments of the blog post.

 Brean does not believe that there is enough evidence for Evolution.  I disagree but this is not my concern in this blog post.  My concern is the use of facts.

From the main post
  Even if it were possible for a human male to evolve, what are the chances of a female counterpart evolving at the same time in order for them to reproduce? 
The thing is, if Brean understood the theory, Brean would know this is not an issue.  Evolution works (or doesn't in Brean's view) on populations, not individuals.  My main rebuttal to this is at the bottom of the quoted sections.

From our discussion in the comments:
 I may maintain that there is not - and never has been - any observable evidence to support what has only ever been a theory, and a very flimsy one at that.
Brean seems unaware that although 'theory' is used in detective shows as 'guess', in science it is not. Evolution is (or isn't) a theory but it isn't "only" a theory.  To explain by example, let's look at gravity. There is a law of gravity.  There is no theory of gravity.  We know gravity works and understand that it works but we have no consensus on why it works.  The explanation is missing.  The theory is missing.
The same from Study.com
Outside of science, the definition of a theory is a thought that may or may not be true. In the science community, a scientific theory is defined as a hypothesis or a group of hypotheses about some phenomena that have been supported through research using the scientific method.
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 Another huge reason why I could never accept evolution is that it offers no hope for the future and no means to solve our problems in the here and now.
I do appreciate your taking the time to respond and respect, not only your views but also your right to express them.
Best regards
The theory of evolution offers hope for the future in the exact same way Germ Theory does. The exact same way the Particle Theory of light does. Heliocentric Theory, Cell theory... None of these offer or take hope away.  To offer a cliche, science is a tool and any tool can be used for good or ill. We cannot say that TNT or dynamite doesn't exist because we don't like bombs or missiles. We can't argue against nuclear physics because of the harm radioactivity can cause.
I left the second sentence in the quote to offer evidence that Brean was gracious and polite throughout.  I am frustrated by Brean's views but not by the tone they were given.

All my research an personal observation leads me to the only possible conclusion.
I have discussed the matter with various people, including scientists of many disciplines. None of them know how life began, or how life triggered the tiniest organism into being - and you are no exception.
Brean is a writer and presumably capable of research.  Brean claims to have discussed the subject with many scientists.  Yet, in asking when males vs females evolve we see that Brean doesn't know what evolution actually states.  Brean is unaware of the proper usage of the term 'theory'.  Brean specifically links lack of acceptance of the theory with its consequences.

In our discussion, I made a similar mistake.  In reading the timeworn attacks on evolution, I imagined I was speaking to a follower of Ken Ham's AIG Young Earth Creationism and made an argument based on that assumption.  Brean corrected me on my error and we moved on.  In an article promoting his book Intuition Pumps, Dennett stated that the way to properly argue a point was to do enough research to be able to describe the opponents position so well and clearly the opponent would thank him.  I jumped to an assumption and was corrected.  We see that Brean didn't understand the theory of evolution even while arguing against it.  Weinersmith seems correct when he said:

I don't know if anyone actually reads this blog but I wonder at the etiquette of blog post argument. Brean had posted an opinion on the blog and promoted a link to it on Twitter so I think my decision to respond was not invasive. I am less comfortable about giving the link to the post at the top of my post. We each made three comments (one of mine was long and had to be broken into two. It really wasn't that long and I was surprised that I had to do that) with Brean politely closing the discussion down.  I have chosen not to post further there.  On another of my blogs, I had a blog post with a long comment discussion and stated that it was done.  I did not lock down comments and someone chose to keep commenting. There is breach of etiquette and there is rudeness ( and worse, is online rudeness) and I feel that commenter crossed a weak line in choosing to continue with comments.  I hope I have not.

Monday, 28 April 2014

Why the theory of Intelligent Design is so hard to rebut.

It is because there is no clear theory of ID. John Pieret of Thought in a Haystack posted an interesting bit recently. Well, he posted more than a bit, but here is the bare minimum that I that describes his point.  I, on the other hand, am posting only a bit, so you can follow the link for more.

The many interesting examples that dominate the ID discussion—the little tail on the bacterium, our eyes or our blood-clotting mechanism, the explosion of new life-forms in the Cambrian period—are just snapshots of things in nature. They are not "evidence" for anything and won't be until the ID theorists develop a theory of how their "designer" works. Once they provide a well-articulated version of their central claim, we can decide whether or not our eyes—or our tails— support their theory.
Darwin knew this
About thirty years ago there was much talk that geologists ought only to observe and not theorise; and I well remember some one saying that at this rate a man might as well go into a gravel-pit and count the pebbles and describe the colours. How odd it is that anyone should not see that all observation must be for or against some view if it is to be of any service!

Pieret is quoting Karl Giberson who is describing a debate he had with Stephen Meyer.

Saturday, 25 May 2013

How to argue

Daniel Dennett has a book out, "Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking", that offers advice on how to argue.  Doctorow, of Boing Boing, quotes a bit that I agree with and one that I, as the point of this blog declares, do not.

Wonderful advice:
1. Attempt to re-express your target's position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: "Thanks, I wish I'd thought of putting it that way."

Not-quite-so-wonderful advice:
A good moral to draw from this observation is that when you want to criticise a field, a genre, a discipline, an art form …don't waste your time and ours hooting at the crap! Go after the good stuff or leave it alone.

I gotta admit that I have heard the latter bit of advice from others and I am entirely willing to believe myself in the wrong.

This blog is dedicated to taking out the obvious bits of crap.  I want to hear the good arguments for Creationism and feel that trying to clear out the crap is worthy - at least of a blog that is updated once a month, if that.