The history of fossil evidence as a metaphor for ID claims.

The following is a comment I left in a Quora argument. The argument was becoming messy due to the constraints of fitting it in the comments box at Quora (or anywhere) so I will also put it here. Our argument was wide-ranging and getting stuck in minutiae so I felt this overview of my position with occasional short quotes was the clearest way to describe my position.

The history of fossil evidence as a metaphor for ID claims.

In Darwin's day, there was little evidence for (or against) evolution. There was excellent evidence but not a lot of it. In those days without access to molecular data, fossils were considered the best way to support (or not) evolutionary claims.

Very soon after Darwin published his theory, Archaeopteryx was found. Now there are around twelve specimens found. And yet, that was only one example of a transitional fossil. It was reasonable to say, "We have no fish-amphibian fossil and I cannot even picture what one would look like. There is no way a fish could evolve into a land animal." Now, there is a very fine set of transitional fossils showing in detail how such evolution could occur. (List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia)

Now, similar arguments are proposed against evolution using nearly the same wording but dealing with molecular evidence. A century earlier, the claim was, "fish can't evolve arms" and now the claim is, "bacteria can't evolve a flagellum."

One of the ways the claims are similar is in the maturity (or lack) in the field. In the late 1800's, few dinosaurs were known and fossils were not organized or described in ways that could be shared. Now, the human genome has been recorded and others are being recorded but the technology is still in its infancy. Just as with a century ago, "We don't know how this could happen" mostly means "We don't know yet." For the sake of argument, it could mean, "...because a Designer did it" but the argument has the same value as when I cannot find my phone.

Creationists and ID proponents need positive evidence but all they have is negative evidence; "We don't know therefore God/ Designer."

With fossils, many major and minor transitions have been found and more will still be found. We will never find fossils of all the living things that ever existed (We don't yet have skeletal fossils of chimpanzees and we know they exist. All we have, and only found a deade ago, are fossilized chimp teeth.)

With ID, the relevant molecules are even less likely to be preserved. Large bones are more likely than small bones to be fossilized. Moecules are nearly infinitely smaller and have no mechanism for fossilization. Even if one fully accepts that bacterial flagellae evolved, there is no obvous reason to expect to find examples of how parts of it could form independently. The flagellum most often discussed consists of forty or so proteins but a useful part of bacteria is a secretory system that consists of twenty of those proteins so the flagellum by definition is not irreducible. What happens if we cannot find any other transitions or pieces? It means we didn't find them. For ID claims to be accepted, they need positive evidence of their Designer, yet they claim this is impossible. A second best would be to explain why they expect such transitional molecules should be findable.

They do not, so the best evidence ID has is, "We don't know, therefore Designer." It is scientifically vacuous.

All I want, all secular science wants, is a positive claim for ID that can be tested. Evolution has passed this test already.

Brian: "Give evidence that is not "we don't know" for any ID claim. "

Answer: Uh.... sure. We KNOW that codes which transmit complex sophisticated information requiring action alwaya has a code maker.

No we don't. We only know of current examples in the infancy of our understanding of DNA. We only know that we don't know. You are demonstrating "We don't know how it could happen, therefore God."

The superficiality of homology arguments.

Brett:

For example bats and dolphins have VERY sophisticated echolocation systems. I'm thinking evolutionists will claim these systems, although similar arose indepentently... analagous. Likewise with teeth... Your belief they are homologous is based on beliefs in transitionals. (And if memory is correct, archaepteryx teeth are not at all like dino teeth).

At first glance, the evidence appears to support both common ancestry and common designer. Humans and apes have many identical genes: If they evolved from the same ancestor or were created by the same God, this is reasonable. At first glance, homology doesn't get you very far.

But when you go beyond superficialities, you find that common ancestry is much better supported.

As an educator, if I give a multiple chjoice test and two students have identical and correct answers, I cannot determine if one cheated. But if I give an essay question test and the students have idential answers, I do have some reason to suspect cheating. And even more, if they have identical wrong answers, I have even greater support for my claim. In this metaphor, I modestly stand in for a designer, giving the same information to all. But cheating stands in for common ancestry- the information didn't come from a God but from another student and wrong answers could be equivalent to ERVs or poor design choices.

Examples of back design choices include the vertebrate eye wired backward and the laryngeal nerve found in vertebrates. In the former case, the design is unecessarily sloppy and causes a blind spot while in the latter, the design makes great sense in fish but beccomes increasingly awkward as tetrapod necks get longer (Laryngeal nerve - RationalWiki).

Science has found that our eyes have a fibre optic type design and the inverted retina design is superior /optimal.

I am not sure if we argued this in a different thread but someone gave me a link to an article on light transmission through the nerve cords and how there was no or little interference in the signal. It did not at all address the blind spot issue I look forward to your link to an article that states that the vertebrate eye is superior/optimal to the cephalopod eye, in aquatic conditions. That is, fish have the same backward wired eye we do so comparisons need to be shown with them. If our eye is superior to the cephalopod eye in all cases, why do cephalopods not have them? I have seen superficial claims on the subject by creationists that always leave out the fact that fish have the same eye we do.

Brian: "You believe there was a ‘super-cat, one with all the genetic information needed for all known (living and extinct) 42 species of felines. And their genes were broken until they fit their current niches. This is testable . Alright, show me the broken ‘tiger’ genes in bobcats and the broken ‘bobcat’ genes in tigers. Heck, show me how a cat with every single one of its genes operational could survive. The ones for thick coats and thin coats. The ones for strength like a tiger and speed like a cheetah. This is all testable so I look forward to your answer."

Answer: No, it is not testable. We don't know what the genome was like thousands of years ago. And all genes in an animal are not operational. ... and what I said is that it MAY be correct (as does the article). Both secular and Biblical scientists hypothesize ancestry...for example, that all dogs may be descendants of a dog similar to wolf.

So to start with, you are immediately claiming that your earlier claim is not testable. Okay, it is then not science. I should be done here. Then you bring up dogs for no good reason and repeat that we are discussing the amount of common ancestry. I know that; that was my point. In fact, none of your protests have any value. We don't have to know what the genome was like thousands (or millions or billions) of years ago. All we need to do is look at what genes have been conserved and even more, what broken genes are still being carried. Because, yes, not all genes are operational, they are broken, and the fact that they are still around strongly supports common ancestry.

And why isn't your claim testable? It might not be now as I don't know what genomes have been recorded but if they are recorded, it should be simple to show -as you say - non-operational genes. That is precisely what I am asking for.

ERV's are consistent with evolutionary hierarchies...except when they aren't.

Okay, what ERVs are not consistent with evolutionary hierarchies?

Science is in the process of discovering these short strands (ERV's) have function (almost as if by design).

This might or might not be true but it is not relevant. ERVs are delivered by viruses. If we carry viral DNA that matches viral DNA in other apes, that is support for evolution no matter how useful or not it is.

Another example of common ancestry vs common designer is found in anti-freeze fish near the two poles. Evolutionists would argue that the two species of fish, so far apart, could not share their DNA and so the anti-freeze genes must be different. The common designer claim is that organisms in identical situations will have identical solutions. In fact, the two fish have different genes for combatting the cold environment. Perhaps God is giving one species a tougher time than the other?

Archaeopteryx and dinosuar teeth.

First off, we need to keep in mind that according to evolutionary history, from the first dinosaur to now, we have had three times more time with dinosaur existing than not. That is, dinosaurs existed from 240 million years ago to 65 million years ago so that is 180 millions with dinosaurs compared to 65 without. There is good reason to expect dinosaur teeth to be quite varied. I would not expect Archae's teeth to match those of herbivores, for example.

I can find nothing to support your claim. Support, please.

Bat and dolphin echolocation.

I am not sure what you expect to find here. The two animals live in very different environments. If the two sonar arrangements are not the same, it would prove nothing. How similar would they need to be to demonstrate common designer?

Some differences here, supporting neither side in the abstract: Echolocation in dolphins with a dolphin-bat comparison

This article describes the similarities and differences between the two types of animals while also pointing out that we, in addition to many other animals, can manage at least a simple form of echolocation -this point is important in considering how different is different enough to support a position. If bats and dolphins are great at it but also many other species are capable of it, then common ancestry and design claims are weak or complicated. Engineering Acoustics/Echolocation in Bats and Dolphins

Bryan: "As the Ham-Nye debate illustrated, when asked if something would ever change their mind, Nye said, "Evidence" while Ham said, "Nothing".

Answer: I think what that shows is some dishonesty from Nye. From the little I know of him, I have never heard him say he is willing to honestly consider the Creator God of tbe Bible.

Your point is irrelevant because many religious people accept evolution. And do you really think that people are are free to choose what they believe are less open-minded than people forced to sign a statement of belief on the subject? A statement required for their job? Individuals are going to be as biased or not but only creationism requires such bias.

If he is like most evolutionists, he interprets evidence only within his worldview of materialism.

I think you mean "scientists" rather than 'evolutionists' because evidence can only be interpreted by assuming naturalism. Otherwise, you get the whole "Did or Why did Adam have a belly button?" or Last Thursdayism problems. If you don't want to accept science, don't. But science cannot show supernatural action. This is why we accept gravity and do not claim, except satirically, Intelligent falling - Wikipedia

So Brian...if your best arguments for common ancestry are proved false by science, are you ready to consider... the evidence is consistent with and helps support the truth of Biblical creation?

Well, I'm still waiting for even more claim is for common design that is more than superficial. Note that showing evolution is false (except for micro-evolution, which is no different from evolution and a convoluted creationist way) is not support for creationism. We haven’t even looked at how ridiculous creationist claims for their side are. And of course, we would have to look at which creationist you want to believe as there are many competing - but equally stupid - claims for how the Earth was flooded and where the water went afterwards.

A whole mess of Flood-splaining

I have to start by pointing out the tortured grammar of this question on Quora.

"Surely the story of Noah's Ark is possibly the most ludicrous story in history?

If thought about logically the idea that a man built a ship to house hundreds of thousands of species is clearly impossible?"

Why do I have to point this out? Because the response from Mark Hunter doesn't really fit as an answer. The question has question marks but isn't obviously a question - perhaps it is form of trolling - and the response immediately jumps into Bible quotes and scientific claims with no scaffolding of explanation. The question is not good but the answer feels as if someone were to ask me, "Where is Bracebridge, Canada?" and I simply gave that person a map. Bracebridge might be on it, depending on the sale and whim of the cartographer but it's a small town in a big country.

For this reason, it is difficult to attack a theme in Hunter's argument. There aren't many obvious themes.

I'll try to share my problems with it.

" ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water" - I think this is Day one of creation and the claim seems to be that the universe is water and Earth sticks out of it the the heavens are above it. Again Hunter does not explain the relevance of this quote so in my first reading I thought it was an attack on the Noah's Flood story. After all, we know the universe is not entirely water, if the Earth sticks out of the water as described then the Earth is flat and Heaven being above Earth doesn't work for a round Earth nor in a time of space exploration.

hunter next offers a quote on the materials and construction of the Ark. It starts, "Make for yourself an ark from resinous wood." He follows this quote up with a discussion of naval architecture which includes:

"same timber particularly favored for shipbuilding by the Phoenicians and by Alexander the Great"

The problem is, although Hunter's quote uses the word 'resinous', other translations of the Bible use 'cypress'* and 'gopherwood'. At Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 6:14-16 - New International Version the asterisk on cypress states, "The meaning of the Hebrew for this word is uncertain." And Gopherwood is the Bible's version of Star Trek's Dilithium Crystals - it sounds specific but means nothing. This clearly means that we can’t make such a statement about other maritime builders or materials.

The following is not a comment on the Ark but on watertight construction. Hunter quotes "You should put the entrance of the ark in its side... ". This is a terrible idea if you want watertight seals. You don't make a door that will be even partially underwater.

Included in his naval architecture points is this:

"only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats" - this suggests to me that I am putting more effort critiquing the argument than he was in making it. It doesn't belong in a architecture list and also there are 1,200 species of bats alone so his numbers don't make sense. Further, it is irrelevant because he needs to look at all species of animal alive and extinct.

In his list of, I don't know, animal facts? He writes:

“10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark”

There are a few birds who could fly for a year but there are a lot that cannot and also cannot land on water and take off again. I don't know of any bird that could live unsheltered through 40 days of rain falling around a meter per hour. They couldn't fly through it and a meter per hour of rainfall would break their wings and necks. There is no reason to imagine that chameleons could live a year in the water. Amphibians? Forget it. The water would be too salty.

"Where Did the Floodwaters Go?

Evidently they are right here on earth. Today there is about 1.4 billion cu km (326 million cu mi) of water on the earth. It covers more than 70 percent of the globe’s surface. The average depth of the oceans is 4 km (2.5 mi); average elevation of the land is only 0.8 km (0.5 mi) above sea level. If the earth’s surface was smoothed out, it would all be covered with water to a depth of 2,400 m (8,000 ft)"

All this seems to require massive earthquakes. Hunter's needs such Earthquakes to flatten and flood the world. This also suggests that more Earthquakes will be needed after a year to make the planet lumpy again and drain some of the lands. Such earthquakes would mostly flatten but not dig trenches or quickly raise tall mountains. This reads like a non-geologist hoping that the magic of the word ‘earthquake’ will fix all credibility problems.

This next point might be the craziest:

"a frozen mammoth was uncovered in Siberia in 1901. After thousands of years, vegetation was still in its mouth. Some see in this, as well as in such other things as marine fossils found on high mountains, deserts, convincing evidence of a sudden, catastrophic global flood"

He thinks something frozen would be evidence of the globes covered in liquid water. If the water is liquid, things won't freeze.

To finish things off:

"floodgates of the heavens were opened." - again, he seems to think the universe is full of water. That might be reasonable for person a few thousand years ago ignorant of the water cycle, but it has to be seen as crazy now, right? right?

Hunter goes on with a list of flood myths around the world. The thing is, I've read the Korean one mentioned in such lists and it describes a flood on a mountain rather than a large one. We might as well look at myths around the world that claim their tribe's founder was born of an animal. In Korea, Dang-gun was born of a god and a Bear who lived in a cave for a year to become human ( Dangun - Wikipedia ). Around the world, similar myths are offered. All are ridiculous.